Softening the carbon tax

Julia · 3 March 2011

Knobby22 said:
That is why I like Ross Gittens - economist with the Age and the company Bluescope Steel's idea that we only tax at the source of the emmissions e.g. coal power power stations and use that money to give to the energy retailers directly so there is NO difference to the consumer price.

We would achieve the aims of encouraging gas fired and other altenative power sources without complex taxation policy and the social engineering associated with this.

The Greens hate this idea as they want ordinary consumers to suffer but this suffering will gain little. The big savings are to be made with dealing with the emmitters. Regulations could be used to limit public wastage of energy.

If the Libs and Labor worked together it could be done without Green approval. It would be for the good of the country and the world.

Makes a lot of sense, Knobby. Given the fairly obviously increasing discomfort toward the Greens on the part of the government, this could still happen.

shiftyphil said:
It's a News Limited tabloid, it'd be pretty much second only to the Australian as Murdoch's personal political mouthpiece.

Taking into consideration your own obvious political bias, why not just say that in the first place instead of denigrating the original question.

I'm pretty sure that advice has been around for a while.

Whether it has or not is irrelevant to the fact that Mr Combet has been making these suggestions about how consumers will need to change their behaviour in the wake of the announcement of the carbon tax.
You have in no way countered my suggestion that consumer behaviour is designed to be changed by the government's carbon tax and you have failed to prove to the contrary.

A lot of people still don't understand that a light switch has an off position for a reason.

How sarcastic and patronising. And how utterly lacking in any comprehension that there are real people out there in our community unable to make ends meet and for whom any suggestion of even greater increases in their electricity bills are a genuine worry.

shiftyphil said:
It's the truth - there was an agreement in place between Labor and the Coalition for a CPRS, and it was then blocked by the Liberals in the Senate. Labor has no expectation that they won't do the same thing, so their is little chance that another agreement would happen.

What??? The Greens blocked it just as much as the Libs, because they said it didn't go far enough.
How about striving for just a very small attempt at objectivity. It's really not that hard.

Smurf1976 · 3 March 2011

One of the big problems with any form of compensation is that individuals quite legitimately have very different consumption patterns.

It varies hugely between states and between different categories of residents (eg family with kids vs elderly couple vs single young person).

Go to Adelaide and it seems that every second house has a ducted evaporative cooler mounted on the roof. Go to Tasmania and, to my knowledge, there literally isn't a single house in the entire state that has one - they simply don't exist. Go to Darwin and I doubt that you'll find anyone stacking 6 tonnes of firewood anytime soon.

If we're going to compensate people then I very much doubt that everyone will end up receiving proper compensation. Some will make a windfall profit, others will hurt big time. Unless the aim is to encourage everyone to move to Brisbane where incredibly low power bills seem to be somewhat common, such an outcome isn't helpful.

GumbyLearner · 3 March 2011

Knobby22 said:
That is why I like Ross Gittens - economist with the Age and the company Bluescope Steel's idea that we only tax at the source of the emmissions e.g. coal power power stations and use that money to give to the energy retailers directly so there is NO difference to the consumer price.

We would achieve the aims of encouraging gas fired and other altenative power sources without complex taxation policy and the social engineering associated with this.

The Greens hate this idea as they want ordinary consumers to suffer but this suffering will gain little. The big savings are to be made with dealing with the emmitters. Regulations could be used to limit public wastage of energy.

If the Libs and Labor worked together it could be done without Green approval. It would be for the good of the country and the world.

Knobby22 your suggestion is reasonable.
But why should Australia even contemplate implementing a system anyway? Given that most production is made in cheap-labour/no environmental standards/you are dead if you don't like the government places anyway?

Are we all meant to be cool dude?

It must be a cool cool world. Are we all meant to entertain Bob Brown's cool world, before any other developed western world democratic system does? In order to secure our future? I'm quite skeptical about a lot of this ****!

SHOW ME THE MONEY FOR AUSTRALIA.

tothemax6 · 3 March 2011

So anyway, what would soften the tax?

Will the AUD fall (probably) so we go short AUD against the worlds most stable currency (easy enough to do)?
Will exotic and bizarre alternative energy companies do a renewable-energy version of a tech bubble, so we can join the gravy train?
Should we just short the ASX200 before the tax begins?

Any other ideas? Ask our boss if the company has overseas postings so we can bail until the madness ends?

GumbyLearner · 3 March 2011

tothemax6 said:
So anyway, what would soften the tax?

Will the AUD fall (probably) so we go short AUD against the worlds most stable currency (easy enough to do)?
Will exotic and bizarre alternative energy companies do a renewable-energy version of a tech bubble, so we can join the gravy train?
Should we just short the ASX200 before the tax begins?

Any other ideas? Ask our boss if the company has overseas postings so we can bail until the madness ends?

That's all very sensible and conceivable should this Carbon Tax **** happen?

shiftyphil · 4 March 2011

Julia said:
What??? The Greens blocked it just as much as the Libs, because they said it didn't go far enough.

The Greens never made a deal to support it.

The Libs had a chance to put a moderate system through, but their change of heart has forced Labor to deal with the greens and deliver a much more aggressive system.

GumbyLearner · 4 March 2011

shiftyphil said:
The Greens never made a deal to support it.

The Libs had a chance to put a moderate system through, but their change of heart has forced Labor to deal with the greens and deliver a much more aggressive system.

Aggressive? Why? Who is leaning on us? Let's export carbon and re-import it for cheaper while every average punter loses their job.

Shame Gillard shame. Shame Combet from Newcastle, where most people don't have a job anyway.

And praise Kyoto (even though it's no longer in force) for changes the wests mindset has about having jobs!

Where to next?

Abbott in charge and he waters down labour costs to accommodate the Vatican and UN's concerns about climate change.

Vote for Bob Brown and hope that a solar flare will hit the earth when he runs the country? Hopefully more kids will
subscribe to the local library and read more non-fiction books.

They are all wolves in sheeps clothing.

My advice for the apolitical blogger is to have a PLAN A, B and C.

DYOR

Centrelink.

GumbyLearner · 4 March 2011

Is this what Mary Jo Fisher has been referring to in her speech in the Senate? As for an ex-barrister speicialising in Industrial Relations. You remember workchoices right? The policy that allowed employers to call workers at the dinner table and request them to return to work rather than have a dinner with the family or get fired!

She's pretty energetic for a cow cockys wife.

http://media.theage.com.au/national...oes-the-hokey-pokey-2213470.html?from=newsbox

In all fairness but they haven't succeeded in getting anything done.

Logique · 4 March 2011

shiftyphil said:
It's the truth - there was an agreement in place between Labor and the Coalition for a CPRS, and it was then blocked by the Liberals in the Senate. Labor has no expectation that they won't do the same thing, so their is little chance that another agreement would happen.

Yes, the 'Member for Goldman Sachs' nearly got away with it. But the Greens wouldn't play either. For mine, Lib Senators Nick Minchin (retired) and Eric Abetz are national heroes, and I believe this will be the verdict of history as well.

The political landscape changes after July. With a Greens Senate majority, why wouldn't the thing be then bulldozed through. Or worse, the wick turned up even further.

Julia · 4 March 2011

Logique said:
Yes, the 'Member for Goldman Sachs' nearly got away with it. But the Greens wouldn't play either. For mine, Lib Senators Nick Minchin (retired) and Eric Abetz are national heroes, and I believe this will be the verdict of history as well.

The political landscape changes after July. With a Greens Senate majority, why wouldn't the thing be then bulldozed through. Or worse, the wick turned up even further.

Agree on both counts.

If we think the Greens are having a disproportionate and unrealistic influence now, it's just nothing to what will happen after July.

nulla nulla · 5 March 2011

Julia said:
If we think the Greens are having a disproportionate and unrealistic influence now, it's just nothing to what will happen after July.

Quite scary isn't it. Bob says to Julia "If you want your bill to go through, you have to support our bill for Wind Power Towers in every backyard....etc etc".

Garpal Gumnut · 5 March 2011

nulla nulla said:
Quite scary isn't it. Bob says to Julia "If you want your bill to go through, you have to support our bill for Wind Power Towers in every backyard....etc etc".

People will vote Gillard out at the first opportunity, the Greens will consolidate in Canberra and in pockets where the Age and Sydney Morning Herald are read.

Canberra seems to increase in size, and Fairfax media readers decrease, so it may make little difference to the Greens.

gg

orr · 6 December 2016

Logique said:
Yes, the 'Member for Goldman Sachs' nearly got away with it.

For mine, Lib Senators Nick Minchin (retired) and Eric Abetz are national heroes, and I believe this will be the verdict of history as well.

The political landscape changes ......mmmmmmmm

Hows that history working out???? statues muted???

A bit of 'Movicol' being passed around the Cabinet as we speak...

Smurf1976 · 6 December 2016

We had a carbon tax and there was quite a fuss politically about it. In due course it was scrapped.

Since then the private sector has acted to bump up first gas and now electricity prices to a significantly greater extent than the effect of that carbon tax. The silence from those who opposed the tax is deafening.

I guess a carbon tax or other things which have the same (or greater) effect is fine just so long as the money's going to private enterprise and not to government. That's how it would appear right now.

sptrawler · 15 December 2016

Smurf1976 said:
We had a carbon tax and there was quite a fuss politically about it. In due course it was scrapped.

Since then the private sector has acted to bump up first gas and now electricity prices to a significantly greater extent than the effect of that carbon tax. The silence from those who opposed the tax is deafening.

I guess a carbon tax or other things which have the same (or greater) effect is fine just so long as the money's going to private enterprise and not to government. That's how it would appear right now.

Would the price increases happened, if the carbon tax was still in place? If so the cost would still be higher.

That, as you know, is the real problem of privatisation, you lose control of the market.

sptrawler · 16 December 2016

Smurf1976 said:
We had a carbon tax and there was quite a fuss politically about it. In due course it was scrapped.

Since then the private sector has acted to bump up first gas and now electricity prices to a significantly greater extent than the effect of that carbon tax. The silence from those who opposed the tax is deafening.

I guess a carbon tax or other things which have the same (or greater) effect is fine just so long as the money's going to private enterprise and not to government. That's how it would appear right now.

The other thing smurph, would the coal fired station have been shut, if a carbon tax wasn't introduced?

If Australia had taken the approach of, we're a small emitter by World standards, so we wait until the major emiters agree on a global emissions scheme.

Maybe we wouldn't be in the situation we find ourselves, where we had to forge ahead, with the " Look at Me, Look at Me" mentality.

Jeez we really do have an identity crisis and a national inferiority complex, we are always wanting everyone to notice us. Sad really.

Softening the carbon tax

Julia

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orr

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