Senate Obstructionism

Seriously, is it constructive to cost the nation a fortune, just to make some trivial political point and prevent bills that finance education and other services etc etc ....?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/04/2355088.htm

Xenophon laments missed chance as Senate rejects car tax
Posted 11 hours 48 minutes ago
Updated 9 hours 49 minutes ago
The Federal Government's luxury car tax bill has been defeated in the Senate after Family First Senator Steve Fielding and the Opposition combined to vote against it.

Independent Senator Nick Xenophon, who had agreed with proposed Greens amendments to the bill, lamented a "lost opportunity" to make the failed luxury car tax bill greener and fairer.
… If the bill had succeeded it would have increased the tax for some cars worth more than $57,000.

Earlier Senator Fielding defended his decision to vote against the legislation, saying he had wanted it to include exemptions to help farmers and tourism operators who need more expensive vehicles for their work.

"The Government could do something if they wanted to to get this measure through," he said. ……Treasurer Wayne Swan told Radio National that Senator Fielding's requested amendments would have been a "compliance nightmare."

Senator Xenophon says the crossbenchers missed a chance to make the failed luxury car tax bill greener and fairer and there needs to be more discussion between crossbench senators in the future.

"I can't speculate on the negotiations between Senator Fielding and the Government, I just don't know what happened there," he said.

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So As I understand it, the proposal is/was to increase the tax on cars from 25% to 33% for the amount in excess of $57K. (= 8% increase) Please correct me if I’ve misunderstood – it’s hard to get the facts….

So a 60K car would cost $240 extra – wowo
and if you buy one once every 10 years , it would cost $24 per year wowo

Hey, with important matters , it might be acceptable - but this is just plain "anti-Australian"

PS When the Govt - or in this case the opposition and Mr Fielding - wastes money with this sort of nonsence - the bill goes back to the likes of you and me --- taxpayers !

2020hindsight said:

Seriously, is it constructive to cost the nation a fortune, just to make some trivial political point and prevent bills that finance education and other services etc etc ....?

So As I understand it, the proposal is/was to increase the tax on cars from 25% to 33% for the amount in excess of $57K. (= 8% increase) Please correct me if I’ve misunderstood – it’s hard to get the facts….

So a 60K car would cost $240 extra – wowo
and if you buy one once every 10 years , it would cost $24 per year wowo

Hey, with important matters , it might be acceptable - but this is just plain "anti-Australian"

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No the extra 8% is added to the total cost of the car, before GST is applied, so it would be more like $4000 - which IS a big deal. On a $100k car make that $7k and so.

I for one am glad that stupid tax increase got blocked. We already pay more than anywhere else in the world for decent cars, and this tax increase would just make it even more ridiculous. 25% "luxury" tax + 10% import duty + 10% GST + 5% stamp duty - I really think that is enough taxes on more expensive cars don't you?? I mean how ridiculous do things have to get??

Cheers,

Beej

The senate rocks.

Imagine the damage to this country if we did not have a Senate in 1975.

It is very important in a system of proportional representation, otherwise you have a virtual dictatorship where the gu'mint of the day has carte blanche by virtue of a small majority.

It has deep faults, but better than the alternative.

2020, the Labour Party did not go to the election on a platform of raising taxes so they cannot say they have any mandate for what they are now asking.

The luxury car tax is rubbish for the price bracket to which it applies, as I understand it. If it were just to apply to top end Rolls Royce, exotic sports cars etc, then OK, but to penalise people like farmers and tourist operators who simply need four wheel drives is stupid. So I agree entirely with the Opposition and Mr Fielding in blocking the legislation.

Ditto the alcopops rubbish. A pure tax grab. No genuine motive towards stopping binge drinking at all.

And again ditto the change to the threshold level for private health cover.
Our State hospitals are in crisis now. They would just go into complete meltdown with the additional pressure placed on them with the exodus from private health subscriptions.

And I am oh so sick of Mr Swan who really might as well carry around a little tape player to save himself speaking in real time. It would say all that stuff about how irresponsible the Opposition are, just over and over again. He could save his voice for the remotely possible occasion when he really has something useful to say.

Julia said:

2020, the Labour Party did not go to the election on a platform of raising taxes so they cannot say they have any mandate for what they are now asking.

The luxury car tax is rubbish for the price bracket to which it applies, as I understand it. If it were just to apply to top end Rolls Royce, exotic sports cars etc, then OK, but to penalise people like farmers and tourist operators who simply need four wheel drives is stupid. So I agree entirely with the Opposition and Mr Fielding in blocking the legislation.

Ditto the alcopops rubbish. A pure tax grab. No genuine motive towards stopping binge drinking at all.

And again ditto the change to the threshold level for private health cover.
Our State hospitals are in crisis now. They would just go into complete meltdown with the additional pressure placed on them with the exodus from private health subscriptions.

And I am oh so sick of Mr Swan who really might as well carry around a little tape player to save himself speaking in real time. It would say all that stuff about how irresponsible the Opposition are, just over and over again. He could save his voice for the remotely possible occasion when he really has something useful to say.

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Well said Julia, a pack of nincompooks. Our local car dealers are going broke over this silly tax, and the kids are drinking straight spirits by the neck.

I'll be out of health insurance once I've racked up all my entitlements this year.

g

Beej said:

No the extra 8% is added to the total cost of the car, before GST is applied, so it would be more like $4000 - which IS a big deal. On a $100k car make that $7k and so.

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Beej
do you have a link to prove that please.
Sorry I was quoting something I heard on radio...

Quick comment also
Farmer's vehicles and Tourism buses etc are tax deductible surely.

(PS As someone who has never paid more that $10K for a car lol - and most around $50 lol - I can't really see what the problem is )

2020hindsight said:

Beej
do you have a link to prove that please.
Sorry I was quoting something I heard on radio...

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I don't have a link sorry - I'm sure you could google it! I now this though because I've bought cars in the bracket and before and paid it - it's spelled out on your invoice..... I think I worked out that money spent on a so called "luxury" car ends up being taxed at an effective marginal rate of around 80% (presuming you buy the car with after tax earned $$$). It's ridiculous, and now they want to make it even worse????

Beej

2020hindsight said:

Quick comment also
Farmer's vehicles and Tourism buses etc are tax deductible surely.

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Cash flow and leasing costs eat away at any deduction. It reminds me of the Keating years.

gg

Beej said:

No the extra 8% is added to the total cost of the car, before GST is applied, so it would be more like $4000 - which IS a big deal. On a $100k car make that $7k and so.

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Beej said:

I don't have a link sorry - I'm sure you could google it! I now this though because I've bought cars in the bracket and before and paid it - it's spelled out on your invoice.....

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Beej, thanks for that - but I think you're wrong
better check that receipt, I think you was robbed
(PS or rather you were talking total, I was talking increase )

Here's a calcultor for LCT (both options 25% or 33%)

http://www.strattonfinance.com.au/car-finance/calculators-tools/luxury-car-tax-lct-calculator.aspx

60000 (car price incl GST excl LCT and govt charges)
25% > 640
33% > 848
increase 208
averaged over 10 years = $21 per year

80000
25% > 5186
33% > 6846
increase 1660
averaged over 10 years = $166 per year

100000
25% > 9732
33% > 12846
increase 3114
averaged over 10 years = $311 per year

I mean anyone who can afford a $100K car can afford $10 a week surely.
It will help encourage people move to smaller less-petrol-guzzling cars - all good , good for them, good for the oil reserves, good for the planet etc

... $311 per year
I mean anyone who can afford a $100K car can afford $10 a week surely.

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Ooops
trying to go too fast here..
should be $6 per week , whatever.

Hey if the baby fuel efficient Ferraris get thrown out with the bathwater of petrol guzzlers, can't be helped. (imo)

2020hindsight said:

Ooops
trying to go too fast here..
should be $6 per week , whatever.

Hey if the baby fuel efficient Ferraris get thrown out with the bathwater of petrol guzzlers, can't be helped. (imo)

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I don't mind all that much if another tax gets shot down.
The rich always find a way around these taxes so it ends up shafting the middle classes.At what point do they stop raping everyone with taxes.Its not like its money well spent.

2020hindsight said:

I mean anyone who can afford a $100K car can afford $10 a week surely.
It will help encourage people move to smaller less-petrol-guzzling cars - all good , good for them, good for the oil reserves, good for the planet etc

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I won't argue with your figures I am sure they are right (you suggest the LCT is only applied to the amount over $57k - that makes sense).

However that last statement is the one I think is BS! That's like saying - "anyone who buys a house worth $200,000 can SURELY afford to pay ANOTHER $20k in tax?" SO let's slap that on them so we can build more hospitals??

Let's see how you feel about punitive taxes when you reach the stage in life where you might like to buy a nice car, but realise the government is socially engineering our society to discourage you from doing so through these sorts of outrageous tax increases - they want us all to drive Hyundia's....

I had a lot of time for Rudd up until the budget when these sorts of measures were introduced, but this one really bugs me, not because I will have to pay it (because I simply won't pay that much LCT on a car, it was more than enough already) but because it means that some things I desire in life are no longer attainable unless I am prepared to give back large proportions of hard earned $$$ to the government in extra tax (which I am not - I'm not that rich!).

It might only be a single factor, but it is things like this that add to the incentives for professional people to leave Australia and live and work o/s - the whole "brain drain" thing is made worse, not better by dis-proportionate punitive taxation. And you know it is happening when they say things like "surely a Ferrari driver can afford it balh blah blah".

Beej

Beej said:

.. the whole "brain drain" thing is made worse, not better by dis-proportionate punitive taxation.

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hey beej,
unless we spend some money on education, there won't be any brains to drain

Poor old 2020 needs some help here. All he is trying to say is that when Labor block a bill in the senate...good. When the Coalition block a bill...bad. This is left-liberal logic straight out of Animal Farm. And surely it makes sense. Doesn't it??

Are you are showing your true colours again 2020? I got news for you pal, $50-60,000 does not buy one a luxury car. Pretty much run of the road. You sure are showing you loyalty to the cause,eh? True believer no doubt. What, you havn't worked out that this is just another tax? Read my lips. TAX! What government in it's first term does not raise taxes? Name One! The only difference with this tax is it satisfies the true believers - "let's stick it to those rich bastards". That's all it is. As for the Alcopop tax - Equally stupid - all it did is make the young people save money by being smarter - mix your own drinks. Doh! This policy smacks of the traditional Labour mentality of envy and resentfullness, just the same as the removal of the rebate on solar systems. Forget about the implications, just tax those rich bastards, who probably vote Liberal anyway (Oh, I forgot, Janet Holmes a Court doesn't but she's got so much money she couldn't care less). Oh yes, and lets not forget that only the poor pollute; apparently the "rich" don't pollute. Just proves me right - your friends Garret and Brown are just idiots.

And I notice you push the same emotive crap as the rest of them...."why, the senate is even stopping us from introducing programs to improve education and health..........." And it's even "un Australian". What a load of rubbish. You must have come down with the last shower of rain, mate!

Why, I even heard that other idiot, Conroy I think his name is, come out this morning and say this tax will hit those rich people buying Ferraris, Rolls Royces, and Porches. True, I heard it on AM as I was driving to work. What a load of emotive claptrap. Just proves my point about slagging the so called rich. Last time I looked at the car section in the newspaper I dare to suggest those cars cost a tad more that $50-60k Try at least 10 times (maybe you can get a entry level Porche at a tad less).

You see mate, this doesnt really hurt the "rich". Folks who buy $50-60k cars are probably not "rich". And we can have an argument on another thread as to how much cash you need to be classified as "rich". A lot of "average" folk buy RVs and 4WDs in that cost range. If a so called "rich" person buys a 4WD they probably would go for something that would be double that cost. This TAX is just hitting the average mob, as a revenue raiser. That's why they are predicting so much revenue ($500m, I think). If they were truly just "hitting the rich" (with what objective in mind trully beggars belief), then the threshhold would be more like $100-150k, or even more.

And by the way, what does "it's tax deductable" have to do with it? Totally irrelevant in the argument. That's the other side of the equation. Are you just trying to make excuses for yet another dumb piece of legislation?

You know, the only thing that surprises me about this mob is that they havn't come up with more taxes. But being the plodders they are, mybe it is taking longer for these dumb bums to work out than it would take an intelligent mob. But watch this space. They will eventually work it out and more (TAX) will be on the way.

And the only reason Keating said the Senate was un-representative swill was because he couldn't get his own way. No analysis of the system, just shoot from the hip with abuse. If you want to get rid of the senate then OK but you are going to have to re-write the constitution and put something else in it's place. So, what's that? Eh?

Once the recession kicks in there won't be many buying new Lambo's but a lot of 2nd hand ones will be for sale.
Most people would claim it all back as a tax deduction anyway so the Feds are no better of.
IN UK a lot of Builders, RE agents, Mortgage brokers, bank staff are now give their CV a polish as the join the rest looking for a new job

Buddy said:

Are you are showing your true colours again 2020? I got news for you pal, $50-60,000 does not buy one a luxury car. Pretty much run of the road. You sure are showing you loyalty to the cause,eh? True believer no doubt. What, you havn't worked out that this is just another tax? Read my lips. TAX!

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so lol - who started this LCT then - currently at 25% for cars over 57K - all existing numbers ?

i.e. a car that currently costs $60000+LCT = 60640 will cost 60848
averaged over 10 years, the increase amounts to $21 per year

...
hey Buddy
maybe you're showing your colours more like it

PS read my lips ... Education

Calliope - like I said, without education the quality of the brains is draining bigtime.

2020hindsight said:

so lol - who started this LCT then - currently at 25% for cars over 57K - all existing numbers ?

i.e. a car that currently costs $60000+LCT = 60640 will cost 60848
averaged over 10 years, the increase amounts to $21 per year

...
hey Buddy
maybe you're showing your colours more like it

PS read my lips ... Education

Calliope - like I said, without education the quality of the brains is draining bigtime.

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Why on earth are you for a tax hike that in effect is not really aimed at the rich??? Is it simply because it’s a labor initiative???

Now then 2020, no tantrums, I was only trying to help. That's gratitude for you.