Rugby League Louts

moXJO · 26 May 2009

Prospector said:
I suspect that the girl, if she was suffering PTSD, would be totally devastated by a not guilty verdict. And that would be another factor in not taking this to court.

.

That or she is full of it. I know a lot of incidents of innocent people who were accused of rape. One was a friend who told me she was raped by this guy only to start dating him 8 hours later
I'm not saying that applies here, but just saying some women are not always the victims they make out to be.

We don't know fully what went on in that room. We don't even know if consent was given to the other players or not.
As for John’s apology we don't even know what that was for. For all we know he felt guilty about cheating on his wife and didn't want to get caught.

Prospector · 26 May 2009

bunyip said:
As you've pointed out, the hotel owner and the girls work colleagues weren't there. Nor have they claimed there were. Their account is only of the girl bragging about her conquests.

No, it is a step removed from that. It is not her account at all, it is them saying what she said. Hearsay. Inadmissable.

cuttlefish · 26 May 2009

bunyip said:
She hooks up with two blokes she doesn't know from a bar of soap, and entices them into the hotel toilet where she has sex with
them.

'entices' them - I'm pretty sure they would have gone in of their own free will - its possible they even enticed her in there - or its possible it didn't happen at all.

The story about her being with the other players in a toilet the night before is a third hand account by the sounds of it (the owner quoting what other staff said she said). Could just be a load of chk chk boom for all we know.

(article here: http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/5570830/group-sex-woman-other-players).

moXJO · 26 May 2009

Must have been a slow news day

RedHotPie.com.au relationship expert Geoff Barker said the survey suggested Australian women were more sexually liberated than men.

"I thought you would find it skewed towards guys, but the reality is women are pursuing group sex just as much," he said.

"Women don't feel judged or watched by society the way Australian men are feeling.

"Women's sexuality is encouraged by the media and the men folk.

"Men tend to be a little bit more shy in the sex department."

He said stories from the rugby league world had given group sex a bad press.

"This kind of thing has been going on since Adam and Eve," he said.

"It's not going to stop purely and simply because society says it's good or bad.

"Consent is a massive part of this. When you tar an activity with a brush like this, and you make it out to be this terrible thing, all you are doing is pushing it underground and making people feel less comfortable.

"Life is short. You should be able to experience as much as you like as long as you are not hurting other people."

Mr Barker said group sex was more widespread than many people thought, yet most participants felt it was no one else's business but their own.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25541220-29277,00.html

bunyip · 26 May 2009

Prospector said:
No, it is a step removed from that. It is not her account at all, it is them saying what she said. Hearsay. Inadmissable.

I didn't say it was her account - I said it was their account of the girl bragging about her conquests.

bunyip · 26 May 2009

cuttlefish said:
'entices' them - I'm pretty sure they would have gone in of their own free will - its possible they even enticed her in there - or its possible it didn't happen at all.

The story about her being with the other players in a toilet the night before is a third hand account by the sounds of it (the owner quoting what other staff said she said). Could just be a load of chk chk boom for all we know.

(article here: http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/5570830/group-sex-woman-other-players).

You seem determined to defend the integrity of this bimbo and give her the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you just dislike Rugby League players more than you dislike bimbos.
Me - I regard both the girl and the League players as low-life people and I can't say I feel particularly sorry for any of them.
None of it would have happened if they were decent people who were above conducting themselves like gutter rats.

cuttlefish · 27 May 2009

bunyip said:
You seem determined to defend the integrity of this bimbo and give her the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you just dislike Rugby League players more than you dislike bimbos.
Me - I regard both the girl and the League players as low-life people and I can't say I feel particularly sorry for any of them.
None of it would have happened if they were decent people who were above conducting themselves like gutter rats.

Yes thats right I will give a 19 year old girl that was gangbanged by men up to 11 years older than her the benefit of the doubt and I don't feel the need to further denegrate, insult or label her. For that I don't apologise.

Calliope · 27 May 2009

bunyip said:
None of it would have happened if they were decent people who were above conducting themselves like gutter rats.

bunyip

We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that Mr Rudd has declared R L to be a religion.

Non-believers may find it disgusting that women can kneel to worship their favourite disciple in a nightclub toilet. It seems like a strange rite, but religious worship takes many forms.

These strange rites, including mass orgies, practised by the R L players apparently have the blessing of Bishop Rudd and High Priestess Bligh.

cuttlefish · 27 May 2009

bunyip said:
Maybe you just dislike Rugby League players more than you dislike bimbos.

No I don't have any general dislike for Rubgy League players but I do dislike the culture in rugby league that tended to close ranks around their players to cover up incidents like this - that culture appears to be changing.

I don't isolate this sort of behaviour to league players, men from any walk of life are capable of bad behaviour, but the profile of these incidents and the way they have been handled in the past (particularly the blame the women mentality) has conveyed the wrong message to impressionable young men imo.

I think the league should be commended for the types of steps that are being taken at the Newcastle club, as shown in the four corners report, unfortunately it will take them a while to get all of the participants in and around the sport to make the cultural shift they are trying to acheive.

I do think it would send a bad message to young men for them to not realise that John's made a variety of errors in the situation that occured. I don't isolate that to being unfaithful to his wife. From my perspective he also abused a position of power and trust with someone considerably younger than him by befriending her and then knowingly bringing her into a high risk situation and then, by his own admission, leaving her to it while he left the room and then apologising to her afterwards.

I have little doubt that he understands the errors of his ways at the time and he's publicly had the courage to come out and speak about it and has also stated that it would serve no purpose to denegrate the women.

Why couldn't it have just been left at that - forgive the bloke, apologise to the girl and move on. But no instead the 'old school' culture (spear headed by twits like Alan Jones) has to go back to the 'slander the hussy' mentality that sends the message to young men that its ok to mistreat women that enter these situations.

I'm not about to stick my head in the sand and say that group sex doesn't occur and if you think its isolated to boofhead league players and gutter dwelling harlots then you're living an illusion.

In my view its more socially productive to acknowledge that it does occur and that both men and women can be willing participants - and to educate both men and women on appropriate behaviour when engaging in sex - be it one-on-one, as a group, standing on their heads while singing pop songs, or however they choose to do it.

bunyip · 27 May 2009

cuttlefish said:
Yes thats right I will give a 19 year old girl that was gangbanged by men up to 11 years older than her the benefit of the doubt and I don't feel the need to further denegrate, insult or label her. For that I don't apologise.

Nobody is asking you to apologise. But rather than saying she was gangbanged, a more fair-minded approach would be to say that maybe she was and maybe she wasn't. No matter what factors point to the guilt or innocence of anyone, that fact is that you really don't know and neither do I or anyone else except those who were actually involved in the incident.

cuttlefish · 27 May 2009

bunyip said:
Nobody is asking you to apologise. But rather than saying she was gangbanged, a more fair-minded approach would be to say that maybe she was and maybe she wasn't. No matter what factors point to the guilt or innocence of anyone, that fact is that you really don't know and neither do I or anyone else except those who were actually involved in the incident.

My use of the term gangbang was to describe group sex involving multiple men with one women, not necessarily to imply rape.

You continually revert to the summation that we don't know exactly what happened yet at the same time you also continue to label and characterise the women in a denegrating way - this seems inconsistent.

My view is that most 19 year old girls aren't emotionally mature enough to handle the type of encounter that she found herself in and most 30 year old men should be well aware of this.

I think we're close to moving around in circles. My post one above this one sums up my overall view on the situation reasonably well.

bunyip · 27 May 2009

cuttlefish said:
I'm not about to stick my head in the sand and say that group sex doesn't occur and if you think its isolated to boofhead league players and gutter dwelling harlots then you're living an illusion.

I'm no so naive that I believe this sort of behaviour is limited to boofhead League players and harlots.
I'm not living under any illusions. But perhaps you are if you can't see that this sordid incident qualifies as gutter behaviour.

Yes, I've labelled and characterised the woman, and also the Rugby League players. Although we don't know all the facts, any fool can see that both parties are trashy people whose sexual behaviour is sordid, to say the least.

cuttlefish · 27 May 2009

bunyip said:
I'm no so naive that I believe this sort of behaviour is limited to boofhead League players and harlots.
I'm not living under any illusions. But perhaps you are if you can't see that this sordid incident qualifies as gutter behaviour.

Yes, I've labelled and characterised the woman, and also the Rugby League players. Although we don't know all the facts, any fool can see that both parties are trashy people whose sexual behaviour is sordid, to say the least.

Ok so you view the behaviour as trashy, I think we've established that in your numerous posts. Thus you also judge anyone that participates in that sort of behaviour to be of poor moral standing and a 'trashy individual'.

Beyond that I'm not really sure what your point is.

Are you prepared to concede that it is highly possible the girl was mistreated and is deserving of sympathy, or not? Or does the fact that she is (in your view) of bad character mean that any mistreatment she received is her fault and she is not deserving of any sympathy?

bunyip · 27 May 2009

cuttlefish said:
Are you prepared to concede that it is highly possible the girl was mistreated and is deserving of sympathy, or not? Or does the fact that she is (in your view) of bad character mean that any mistreatment she received is her fault and she is not deserving of any sympathy?

Certainly I'm willing to concede that it's possible the girl was mistreated against her will. And if that was in fact the case, then irrespective of her trashy character she not only deserves sympathy, but also compensation from those who mistreated her.

What's not clear is whether the treatment she received was against her will, or whether she was a willing participant.
The League players say she was a willing participant, she says she wasn't, but only after a week of boasting that she was.
You've chosen to give her the benefit of the doubt by believing her version.

Now let me ask you a question.....
Are you willing to concede the possibility that the League players have been wrongly accused of forcing themselves on the girl?
And if they have been wrongly accused, are they deserving of any sympathy or not?

Or does the fact that they are of bad character (in your view at least - as indicated by your derogatory remarks about them) mean that the entire incident was their fault and they are not deserving of the benefit of the doubt, let alone any sympathy?

Julia · 27 May 2009

The following is from columnist Rebecca Sparrow, in the "Sunday Mail", Qld.

Like many households, we watched the Four Corners "Code of Silence" story with sadness and revulsion. The program detailed a grubby culture operating in some National Rugby League clubs. Any male sport adopting a "boys will be boys" culture needs to have a reality check. Players found to be involved in any type of sexual assault should be sacked.
Charges need to be laid.

But what of the issue of consent? Sports stars who exploit the adoration of young star struck fans by encouraging them to behave in a way that is demeaning should be held accountable. But the woman consented? It doesn't matter. She has been exploited. This type of behaviour may not be illegal, but it's morally bereft.

And yet there is a growing trend of young women willing to degrade and humiliate themselves for the sake of having sex with players. Groupies have always been around, but this behaviour seems to have become more prevalent and more socially accepted. Threesomes in nightclub toilets, sexting (sending naked images via text) and allowing film to be shot as you perform sexual acts is seen as a bit of fun. Please. To hear that a woman was encouraged to wear bunny ears and perform sexual faours on four NRL players turned my stomach. Women are allowing themselves to be sexual entertainment for men. Providing gratification for males at your own expense does nothing for your self worth and dignity.

This issue of young women willingly giving up their power to engage in humiliating sex scenarios needs to be addressed, because it's not restricted to rugby league. Speak to high school counsellors and you'll hear of "rainbow parties" where girls as young as 12 are performing sex acts on male classmates.

I am aware this column has a substantial teenage readership and parents and teachers at times use it as a discussion tool. Let me say this: sex - in whatever form it takes - quickly becomes demeaning when there is an imbalance of power.

And what of the health risks? Few young people realise you can get chlamydia and gonorrhoea in your throat and herpes in your mouth.

There is nothing attractive about a girl who is willing to be sexually humiliated for the entertainment of males. Don't kid yourself. Being a sexual slave is not empowering, it reeks of desperation.

If you want to be respected and admired, behave like a leader. Not a groupie. Attractive girls have inner confidence, laugh easily, don't bow to peer pressure, and would never demean themselves for male attention. Young women need to start taking back their power. They need to start commanding respect. And they need to have the dignity to say "No.".

awg · 27 May 2009

heres one for youse all

note the impeccable source

AUSTRALIAN women are as keen as men to take part in consensual group sex - and they initiate it almost as often, according to a controversial online survey.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25542379-953,00.html

moXJO · 27 May 2009

Julia said:
The following is from columnist Rebecca Sparrow, in the "Sunday Mail", Qld.

This columnist is living in the past. Sexual attitudes have changed. Women have just as much right to enjoy sex however they want and not be judged, just as men do. And this is what is happening. Who is this idiot to play the moral police? Withholding sex to get an upper hand of those evil males
Great philosophy...
"humiliating sex scenarios "

"never demean themselves for male attention"

"Young women need to start taking back their power"

"sex - in whatever form it takes - quickly becomes demeaning when there is an imbalance of power"

"degrade and humiliate themselves "

Sounds like someone has an issue by equating sex and power in such a combative way. Go Go feminazi

Just because you enjoy whatever you enjoy, does not mean you do not have self respect. Nor does it mean you are a sex slave or that you are not confident in yourself.

It is people like this that seem to like to demean, and belittle people that may actually be enjoying their lives. At least until stuck up prudes want to interfere.

cuttlefish · 27 May 2009

bunyip said:
Or does the fact that they are of bad character (in your view at least - as indicated by your derogatory remarks about them) mean that the entire incident was their fault and they are not deserving of the benefit of the doubt, let alone any sympathy?

Firstly I don't recall making derogatory remarks about league players in general in this thread, and no I don't have a generic view that league players are of bad character. I've been critical about how the NRL/league, and some of the clubs have handled situations like this. I'm also specifically critical of some of the behaviour reported in this incident and have explained my reasons for it and that viewpoint is unlikely to change.

bunyip said:
Now let me ask you a question.....
Are you willing to concede the possibility that the League players have been wrongly accused of forcing themselves on the girl?
And if they have been wrongly accused, are they deserving of any sympathy or not?

Yes if a player is wrongly accused of forcing themselves on someone then they are deserving of sympathy, and I also would concede that its entirely possible that no 'force' was used in any kind of legal sense in this situation.

Whether or not 'force' was used does not mean that nothing wrong was done and that there aren't significant lessons to be learnt out of it that can be used to educate the next generation of players (and men in general) about what is and isn't approprate in terms of behaviour and respect.

My viewpoint is that if you examine this situation there are escalating breaches of trust and privacy that slowly stripped away every ounce of personal power that the girl had in this situation and led to her participating in something she either regretted at the time or afterwards.

There are definitely good lessons for young women in this but regardless of her behaviour I still hold the men involved more accountable - given their age, numbers and status, they were in the position of power from start to finish.

Duckman#72 · 27 May 2009

cuttlefish said:
You continually revert to the summation that we don't know exactly what happened yet at the same time you also continue to label and characterise the women in a denegrating way - this seems inconsistent.

I think you need to read the whole thread Cuttlefish - if you had, surely you would not have even suggested this to Bunyip.

cuttlefish said:
I think we're close to moving around in circles.

I agree. This thread has run its course now, due in part to some of the remaining contributors trying to sit on every side of the table at the same time.

Duckman

bunyip · 27 May 2009

cuttlefish said:
Firstly I don't recall making derogatory remarks about league players in general in this thread, and no I don't have a generic view that league players are of bad character. I've been critical about how the NRL/league, and some of the clubs have handled situations like this. I'm also specifically critical of some of the behaviour reported in this incident and have explained my reasons for it and that viewpoint is unlikely to change.

Yes if a player is wrongly accused of forcing themselves on someone then they are deserving of sympathy, and I also would concede that its entirely possible that no 'force' was used in any kind of legal sense in this situation.

Your reference to 'boofhead league players' is a derogatory term and is a clear indication of what you think of them.
I agree with you incidentally - they are indeed boofheads and worse.

If you're going to be 'specifically critical of some of the behaviour reported in this incident' (your words) then you want to make damn sure that it's not selective criticism of one party, while you let the other party off scott free. Remember that some of the behaviour reported in this incident relates to the girl, not just to the League players.

OK, so you accept that the players deserve some sympathy if they're wrongly accused of forcing themselves on the girl.
Now you need to adopt the fair-minded view that it's entirely possible that they are in fact being wrongly accused.
To give all the benefit of the doubt to the girl is not a realistic or fair-minded approach on your part. You don't know for certain what happened, none of us do, except that some quite unsavoury sexual behaviour occurred.
There's no hard evidence that anything illegal took place. If there was, there would have been charges laid with subsequent court proceedings.
Take it all with a grain of salt, both the footballers version and hers.

Rugby League Louts

moXJO

menace to society

Prospector

Not a scaredy cat anymore

cuttlefish

moXJO

menace to society

bunyip

bunyip

cuttlefish

Calliope

cuttlefish

bunyip

cuttlefish

bunyip

cuttlefish

bunyip

Julia

In Memoriam

awg

moXJO

menace to society

cuttlefish

Duckman#72

bunyip

Rugby League Louts

menace to society

Not a scaredy cat anymore

menace to society

In Memoriam

menace to society

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency