• Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Robot versus retail on the ASX

Discussion in 'Stock Market Nuts and Bolts' started by Gringotts Bank, Apr 19, 2017.

  1. Gringotts Bank

    Gringotts Bank

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    How to fight back?

    If you place a buy order at the top bid, the price moves up away from you. If you place a sell order at or near the top offer, the price moves down away from you. If you do nothing, the price remains exactly where it is. If you use conditional orders, the market always thins to nothing when nearing lows, so you rarely get filled on a reversion system nowadays.

    I only know one basic tactic - never, EVER sit your order in the queue. If you're in the queue and your order goes through, you've usually made a mistake, because the price is continuing up (if you've been bought) or down (if you've been filled).

    How many midcap stocks on the ASX have just one institution actively trading? In such cases, the price will move wherever they decide to move it. They see you, and you can't see them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  2. Trembling Hand

    Trembling Hand Can be found on the bid

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    Probably the best defence is to stay on your medication.
     
    peter2, Quant, OmegaTrader and 3 others like this.
  3. Gringotts Bank

    Gringotts Bank

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    Opening a short position on some of these midcaps might result in the price being moved down into a reasonable buying zone. Seems like a lot of jockeying just to enter a long position. Captain black knows about this stuff.... Cap been awol for a while.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  4. skc

    skc Goldmember

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    If what you say is true... isn't that a license to print money?

    Say you want to buy something @ $4.00. You simply enter a sell order @ $4. The bot pushes the asking price down to $3.99, and you buy the ask at $3.99. Now remove your $4.00 ask, and replace with a $4.00 buy order. The bot pushes price up to $4.01, you say "Thank you very much" and sell your shares back to the bot @ $4.01. You just made 2c exploiting the bot!

    Rinse and repeat until rich.
     
  5. tech/a

    tech/a No Ordinary Duck

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    Call 1800 MULDER
     
  6. Gringotts Bank

    Gringotts Bank

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    That's what I was contemplating in my last post. The depth is often comprised of hundreds of tiny orders and me, sitting out like dog's balls. Not that my orders are big by any means, but they are a lot bigger than a $6 bot order. I'd like to try it, but I feel like they can see the broker codes (we can't) and bots know that retail buyers will rarely follow through with more buying, so they can just as easily keep pushing it down till you get stopped out. One tick trading then becomes impossible. In any case, they rarely offer decent volume to buy inta-day.

    On a related note, reversion systems for ASX are becoming harder and harder by the day. The volume offered at likely turning points is tiny, only returning to normal once the reversion is near complete. Institutions will know if they are the only active traders in a stock. They just move the price around and see if other bots react. If it's just them, they can do as they please with the price. Retail traders have no way of competing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  7. skc

    skc Goldmember

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    No one can see broker codes until T+1. And there isn't just one retail trader... there are thousands.

    If the insto/bot is pushing the price down for no reason but to shaft you, they are opening up their back side for shafting by others who would take advantage of the artificially lowered price.

    List some stock codes where you think this (or other stuff that you've said) is happening - so others can watch the depth replay to see what you mean.
     
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  8. Gringotts Bank

    Gringotts Bank

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    T+1 - that's good to know. Provides some comfort.

    There was that case of a Sydney institution who manipulated the price of a mid cap miner way down in price. Can't recall the name or the stock but you know the one. That would be an instance of other players - big or small - staying out of the game when the price is made to look weak.
     
  9. tech/a

    tech/a No Ordinary Duck

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    Bots are programmed to buy X at Y and sell X at Z
    its about average in and average out = guaranteed profit.
    The book makers of the stock trading industry.

    They don't give a rats about what your doing.
    They know what they are doing.
     
  10. Quant

    Quant

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    Dont fight the bots , BE a bot . GH its me front running you :roflmao:
     
  11. skyQuake

    skyQuake

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    Just stay out of illiquid microcaps.

    Size impacts price at all levels
     
  12. Gringotts Bank

    Gringotts Bank

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    Hey SQ, what was the name of that stock which got manipulated by the Australian fund? I remember you posted it a while back...maybe last year.

    Not micro, mid caps.
     
  13. Trembling Hand

    Trembling Hand Can be found on the bid

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    Who cares. It happened and they got busted. If you haven't the brains to beat someone on their turf, tick trades, don't play the game.
     
  14. skyQuake

    skyQuake

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    SYR was the one u're looking for. However what they did (trigger some credit suisse warrants) wasn't strictly speaking illegal at the time
     
  15. gaius

    gaius

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    No, don't fight back. If you do and succeed in what you are doing, 'they' would put you in jail. What's the name of that smart dude who 'caused' the flash crash again?

    btw the fact that someone playing with their orders can trigger some kind of response tells you that 'they' exist.
     
  16. Gringotts Bank

    Gringotts Bank

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    Thanks. I know the story you're referring to and I'm not in that guy's league. I think all I can do is avoid sitting an order in the queue where it's visible. That, and maybe lengthen my time frames. Surprises me a bit how others haven't noticed it. Although if you trade in the auction periods or with conditional orders you wouldn't see it so much.
     
  17. Gringotts Bank

    Gringotts Bank

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    Someone kindly lent me the trades that went through around that time, with the broker codes.

    Of note:

    1- Many different instos buying/selling. Competition is good, since it reduces the chance of manipulation significantly.

    2- All insto broker codes appear as both buyers and sellers. I don't like that one bit, but it could be legit. We'll never know.

    3- My little retail trade was bigger in size than 95% of insto trades that went through. Hard to believe, but this accounts for the fact that the bots see it and always move the price away. It probably registers as 'big buying interest', which is hilarious considering the amount involved.

    4- The number of retail trades is absolutely miniscule compared to insto. It's basically all insto.


    Summary - retail trades can be seen as 'big' [even when they're not], causing bots to react and move the price away from your order. Don't sit your order in the queue.
     
  18. Trembling Hand

    Trembling Hand Can be found on the bid

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    If that was true you are an idiot for not doing the same. You are basically saying with a small amount of volume you can control the stock price, make it do what you want AND profit from it while not being ar$e F'ed by others. If that was the case then you are simply stupid beyond belief if you didn't implement the same tactics to profit from your observation.
     
  19. Gringotts Bank

    Gringotts Bank

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    I'm afraid it's you who is the idiot. There's no volume available intraday to sell into. If you want to tick trade (I don't), you need a tight spread and lots of available volume.
     
  20. Trembling Hand

    Trembling Hand Can be found on the bid

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    So you are saying you can see how 'someone' is manipulating a/few/many stocks and making money at will and you are not going to copy it? :rolleyes:
     
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