RIN - Rinker Group

Realist · 23 August 2006

ducati916 said:
Realist

Interesting.
Actually, it wrote down Receivables.
With it's drop in price, due to the market's lack of understanding, DOW, may in point of fact represent an undervaluation.

I presume you are off calculating some intrinsic values for RIN

jog on
d998

I don't invest in companies that make losses.

I don't care why they made losses, everyone has different excuses, I am not interested in hearing them.

NettAssets · 23 August 2006

Realist said:
I don't invest in companies that make losses.

Would you trade it Realist.?
Thanks
John

ducati916 · 23 August 2006

Realist

So $17.69~ per share for RIN
I'll break it down myself and see if I agree with you. I'll use your purchase price of $12.89. As previously posted viz. RIN, I think this is a good company, it was simply overpriced, whether it is undervalued at $12.89 remains to be seen.

don't invest in companies that make losses.

I don't care why they made losses, everyone has different excuses, I am not interested in hearing them.

A rather closed mind approach to investing.
GAAP losses, need not be real losses, any more than GAAP profits, need be real profits.

Your analysis seems somewhat in the box, especially for one who advocates the principals of value investing.

jog on
d998

Realist · 23 August 2006

NettAssets said:
Would you trade it Realist.?
Thanks
John

Nah.

The point of trading is to jump on a rocket just as it takes off, and jump off it after a short but quick ride, just before it crashes back down to earth.

Dow may slowly rise, it aint gonna skyrocket. Or crash further. It is investment worthy, but not worthy enough for me!

Realist · 23 August 2006

ducati916 said:
Realist
A rather closed mind approach to investing.
GAAP losses, need not be real losses, any more than GAAP profits, need be real profits.

It sure is closed. As investments I eliminate all companies that make losses.

A loss is a loss, I don't care what happened or what the excuse is, I'll move onto another stock that makes a profit instead. There's plenty of fish in the sea.

ducati916 · 23 August 2006

Realist

It sure is closed. As investments I eliminate all companies that make losses.

A loss is a loss, I don't care what happened or what the excuse is, I'll move onto another stock that makes a profit instead. There's plenty of fish in the sea.

It is this rather unfortunate lack of attention to detail that rather gives the value investor a poor reputation.

In essence, your investment philosophies application could find you investing in fraudulent companies, while avoiding legitimate investments due to the inability to differentiate between reality and GAAP. You are aptly named.

jog on
d998

Realist · 23 August 2006

$14.00 now!!

Realist · 23 August 2006

ducati916 said:
Realist It is this rather unfortunate lack of attention to detail that rather gives the value investor a poor reputation.

Well I may have a poor reputation, but Buffett and Graham don't. :

In essence, your investment philosophies application could find you investing in fraudulent companies, while avoiding legitimate investments due to the inability to differentiate between reality and GAAP. You are aptly named.

Well if Westfield, Fosters, and Rinker have been falsely reporting I agree I'll be stung. along with thousands or millions of others.

What do you suggest I do about that?

I diversify widely so if one of them blows up overnight, I'll lose 5 to 7% of my investements - claim that back against other profits, I'll lose say 3% - woop-de-do!!

What do you do to protect yourself against fraud?

ducati916 · 23 August 2006

Realist

As a self proclaimed investor, the fluctuations of the short term market price should not influence unduly your position. What should concern you is that your purchase price has afforded you enough of a margin of safety in which to realize a profit, and protect your principal.

As such, posting $14 is an irrelevancy in the context of safety of principal & profit potential.

I will post an analysis over the next day or so, and compare my calculation of intrinsic value, to yours.

jog on
d998

ducati916 · 23 August 2006

Realist said:
Well I may have a poor reputation, but Buffett and Graham don't. :
Well if Westfield, Fosters, and Rinker have been falsely reporting I agree I'll be stung. along with thousands or millions of others.

What do you suggest I do about that?

I diversify widely so if one of them blows up overnight, I'll lose 5 to 7% of my investements - claim that back against other profits, I'll lose say 3% - woop-de-do!!

What do you do to protect yourself against fraud?

But unfortunately you do not have Graham or Buffett providing an analysis for you. You are providing your own analysis, and you have closed your mind to the differences in reported results under GAAP.

Therefore, unless you are willing to fill the gaps in your knowledge, you may well get caught.

I protect myself through ever improving my analytical skills.
Diversification

Your cavalier attitude to losses, suggests that you do not really follow Grahams teachings, save from lip service, nor Buffett, as to quote Buffett;

Rule #1
Never lose money
Rule #2
Refer to Rule #1

jog on
d998

Realist · 23 August 2006

ducati916 said:
Realist As such, posting $14 is an irrelevancy in the context of safety of principal & profit potential.

Haahaaa, I mostly agree, but it does indicate I did buy near the bottom which is the hardest thing to do.

Ben Graham never had internet message boards to post on... Maybe he would have followed prices and chatted about them more if he had?

$14.00, up 9% in one week. I'm happy!!

:band

Realist · 23 August 2006

ducati916 said:
Your cavalier attitude to losses, suggests that you do not really follow Grahams teachings, save from lip service, nor Buffett, as to quote Buffett;

Rule #1
Never lose money
Rule #2
Refer to Rule #1

jog on
d998

what examples do you have of me being cavalier to losses exactly?

Graham did make losses you know, and he did not dwell on them, he looked forward as I do.

ducati916 · 23 August 2006

Realist

I diversify widely so if one of them blows up overnight, I'll lose 5 to 7% of my investements - claim that back against other profits, I'll lose say 3% - woop-de-do!!

This type of nonsense is a fairly typical example.

Graham did make losses you know,

Did he really?
What were they?

jog on
d998

Realist · 23 August 2006

ducati916 said:
Realist

This type of nonsense is a fairly typical example.

Haha, how can you possibly avoid losses completely?

You can't you diversify to protect yourself. And you sleep easy.

You are showing your ignorance now.

Did he really?
What were they?

ahhh yes, big enough for him to be nearly bankrupt in 1931.

Have you ever made a loss Ducati?

ducati916 · 23 August 2006

Realist

ahhh yes, big enough for him to be nearly bankrupt in 1931.

Incorrect.
Graham as one of two principal partners in the Graham/Newman Partnership nearly went bankrupt because their compensation was linked to generating profits. During the Depression, they did not get back above their high tide mark until 1936, however, that is different from sustaining security losses.

Haha, how can you possibly avoid losses completely?
You can't you diversify to protect yourself. And you sleep easy.
You are showing your ignorance now.

As a point of fact, you can avoid losses.
Diversification & quality analysis can provide a 100% track record.
As can specific strategies.

Have you ever made a loss Ducati?

As a technical trader, I made 1000's of losses.
As an investor, I haven't lost money [not a penny] in 2.5yrs

I will have drawdown on positions, but, I still have currently anyway, a 100% record.

jog on
d998

Realist · 23 August 2006

ducati916 said:
Incorrect.
Graham as one of two principal partners in the Graham/Newman Partnership nearly went bankrupt because their compensation was linked to generating profits. During the Depression, they did not get back above their high tide mark until 1936, however, that is different from sustaining security losses.

Whatever, he made losses. And I don't blame him.

Graham states losses are to be expected, and you need to minimise them, maybe sell the company and offset a gain, the rebuy over 31 days later, you get the tax loss and still own the company at a good price.

ducati916 said:
As a point of fact, you can avoid losses.
Diversification & quality analysis can provide a 100% track record.
As can specific strategies.

Bollocks. you can never be 100% certain you will avoid losses. The sun may not rise tomorrow, nothing is certain. I agree you can get damn close to 100% though, as Buffett has done. Buffett is smarter than you and I though.

ducati916 said:
As a technical trader, I made 1000's of losses.

Yeah I'm no good at trading either.

It's fun though.

ducati916 said:
As an investor, I haven't lost money [not a penny] in 2.5yrs

Wow, not lost any money in a roaring bullmarket. You must be a genius.

I've made big losses years ago, and I'm damn proud of them, they gave me a severe wake-up call. And proved to me I am as dumb as anyone else, and I better be carefull.

I've done well 'investing' recently, but I could have done better I've made mistakes, and I'm fully aware times will change and I wont do so well.

ducati916 · 23 August 2006

Realist

Whatever, he made losses. And I don't blame him.

You see inattention to detail.
Very sloppy.

Graham states losses are to be expected, and you need to minimise them, maybe sell the company and offset a gain, the rebuy over 31 days later, you get the tax loss and still own the company at a good price.

He never said anything of the sort.
Complete nonsense and fabrication.

Bollocks. you can never be 100% certain you will avoid losses. The sun may not rise tomorrow, nothing is certain. I agree you can get damn close to 100% though, as Buffett has done. Buffett is smarter than you and I though.

Incorrect.
Convertible Arbitrage.
100% risk free, guaranteed profit.

Yeah I'm no good at trading either.

Again, inattention to detail.
I did not state I was a bad trader, I said I had 1000's of losses.
But I had more winners.
In fact I have live trades posted, that show an 87% return over 9mths

Wow, not lost any money in a roaring bullmarket. You must be a genius.

Again, no attention to detail.
I do not trade ASX
I trade US
The US has not been in a bullmarket, it has been rangebound.

I've made big losses years ago, and I'm damn proud of them, they gave me a severe wake-up call. And proved to me I am as dumb as anyone else, and I better be carefull.

Obviously not.
Your mind is still closed.

jog on
d998

Realist · 23 August 2006

pedantic, pedantic, pedantic.

If you seriously think losses are completely unavoidable I pity you.

ducati916 · 23 August 2006

Realist

I see that you have exhausted your limited knowledge base.
This comes as no great suprise, based on previously posted material.
That you are unaware of Convertible Arbitrage simply highlights further the parsimonious research that you have undertaken.

As it happens, I have no great issue with your lack of knowledge.
What I do have issue with however is your constant reference to Benjamin Graham.

Quite honestly I should require you to avoid damaging his name and reputation further with your ill-informed, ill-conceived, and scurillous misrepresentation of his work.

As I am the chef, supper now needs to be addressed.
Therefore, hopefully, you shall desist from further inaccurate representation of Graham & Buffett.

I shall provide an analysis of RIN.
I would be interested in reading your analysis if you feel that you can provide one.

jog on
d998

Realist · 23 August 2006

ducati916 said:
Realist

I see that you have exhausted your limited knowledge base.
This comes as no great suprise, based on previously posted material.
That you are unaware of Convertible Arbitrage simply highlights further the parsimonious research that you have undertaken.

As it happens, I have no great issue with your lack of knowledge.
What I do have issue with however is your constant reference to Benjamin Graham.

Quite honestly I should require you to avoid damaging his name and reputation further with your ill-informed, ill-conceived, and scurillous misrepresentation of his work.

As I am the chef, supper now needs to be addressed.
Therefore, hopefully, you shall desist from further inaccurate representation of Graham & Buffett.

I shall provide an analysis of RIN.
I would be interested in reading your analysis if you feel that you can provide one.

jog on
d998

Oh dear, oh dear!!

Have you even read Security Analysis and the Intelligent Investor?

Graham speculated on hundreds of minor securities that had a NTA greater than its Market Cap.

He made losses on some of them!!!
Being pedantic does not make you sound more intelligent, quite the contrary actually.

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