Ricky Ponting should be sacked

doctorj, do you think Bucknor's performance warrants further selections? India has muddied the water calling for his sacking, but it doesn't mean he shouldn't be! I thought his performance was sub standard.

Broadside said:

doctorj, do you think Bucknor's performance warrants further selections?

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I don’t know - I don’t know what rules and standard practices the ICC have in place, but I do know that the very last group that should have a say in an umpire’s appointments and that’s the team that lost the umpire’s last game!

Also, you’d have to be pretty hard pressed to argue that someone deserves to be sacked after one or two bad decisions in a single game after years of top performances at the highest level.

It’s like saying Tiger Woods is crap at golf after a couple of bad shots in a round!

Ponting is a great cricket player but not a role model that you want as a leader. He would of spat the dummy heaps of times in his early days of playing cricket.

Sack the Cricket Board while they are at it. It is hardly an Australian Team, mainly NSW players and not one Victorian player despite leading the Pura Cup in recent years.

Time for a review before we lose our position in world cricket.

I reckon Bucknor has been past it for quite a while. I agree the BCCI shouldn't be the ones doing it. Get used to it, cricket administration has been weak for a long, long time and now the BCCI has all the money/power, and money talks. A shame it takes this to get cricket onto the front pages again, I think the sport itself is in a very unhealthy state as witnessed by jumping onto gimmicks like 20/20, because One Dayers became boring and predictable and test cricket is utterly dominated by one nation (not Australia's fault, but that's how it is! sport is dull without a contest!)

doctorj said:

Absolutely woeful, disgusting and revolting.

As a sports official myself, words cannot describe how angry this makes me.

Bucknor is one of the best umpires going around. It's such a shame the ICC is subservient to the BCCI.

What message does this send?
a) It's ok to abuse sports officials, you'll get away with it and even rewarded
b) We don't value the contribution our officals make to the game
c) Don't make a call against India, you may get the boot
d) If India doesn't win, it's not their fault but someone else’s
e) The umpires are no longer independent
f) The ICC are redundant
g) All of the above

The ICC has a very rigorous performance assessment framework for their umpires. If Bucknor was found to be under-performing versus a set of benchmarks, then I’m all for him to be cut. What I’m not in favour of is teams being allowed to get away with bullying umpires.

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h) that if you are an international umpire, and you make a string of bad decisions heavily favouring one side, including not hearing a snick that was heard in the pavilion - that you're past it.

as pointed out above - 7 errors (or whatever) is getting on to be an innings - assuming good batsman involved - obviously we are pretty likely to win a match when we have 2 innings to their one and a bit

I'm agreeing that it's not easy to umpire and get all decisions right - but IN THESE DAYS OF INSTANT video replays - when the audience know errors as soon as they are called - then as discussed on another thread - it's time for the umpiring techniques to move with the times (imo)

the poor guy .. Bucknor gives his life to cricket umpiring and generally does a good job and one bad day will probably lead to the end of his career... hes been harshly treated ... ICC are just pandering to the Indians a bit

Rocket man said:

... and one bad day will probably lead to the end of his career...

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the Indians are claiming more than one incident apparently ...

http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2008/jan/06bucknored.htm

The umpire has a history of confrontations with the Indian team. We take a look at some of past such instances:

Steve Bucknor v India

Steve Bucknor: Umpired in 21 India Tests, India has won five of them

1992-93: India vs South Africa, Johannesburg

With South Africa reeling at 73-5, Indians appeal for Jhonty Rhodes' run-out. Bucknor refuses to take Third Umpire's help. Replays show Rhodes, who went on to play a match-saving innings, was clearly short of the crease.

Result: Match drawn.

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1998-99: India vs Pakistan, Kolkata

Shoaib Akhtar [Images] obstructs Sachin Tendulkar [Images] as he fails to make it to the crease. Bucknor turns a blind eye and refers the matter to the TV umpire. As the red light flashes and Tendulkar walks to the dressing room, Eden erupts.

Result: Pakistan won

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2003-04: India vs Australia, Brisbane

Tendulkar is given out lbw when the ball hit on a knee roll and the line was just outside the off-stump. The bowler was Jason Gillespie and India slips after a good start.

Result: Match drawn

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2003-04: India vs Australia, Sydney

India is on the verge of history of a series win on the final day. Bucknor refuses a number of close leg-before decisions against the Aussies. India falls short of time. Skipper Sourav Ganguly in his post-series report to ICC gives Bucknor very poor ratings with adverse comments.

Result: Match drawn

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2003-04: India vs Pakistan, Lahore [Images]

India is already on the backfoot in the series for the first time after an awful batting display. Five opportunities missed while bowling, four of them adjudicated by Bucknor. This forces Indian coach John Wright [Images] to complain to match-referee Ranjan Madugalle during the day's play.

Result: India lost

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2004-05: India vs Pakistan, Kolkata

Sachin Tendulkar walked back to the dressing room with tears in his eyes as Bucknor (standing in his 100th Test) declared him out at 52 after his bat clearly missed the ball sent down by Abdul Razzaq [Images] and none of the Pakistanis, other than the bowler, appealed.

Result: India won

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(Personally I reckon he should be allowed back - but with the option to use the third umpire more often - either at his request or at the request of one or other captain ( limit per game - as already being considered by ICC - file reopened apparently - as per the other thread on "sports technology". )

I actually can't see what is wrong with celebrating a win. We were trying to win and did. I saw quite a few of our players congratulating the indian players(Tendulkar and Laxman) when they made their fantastic centuries. We were playing hard, playing for the win fairly and we were successful.

Maybe I missed something but I can't see how having a group celebration after pulling off a fantastic victory is bad or arrogant. Ponting always seems to be well spoken and gracious and also very happy to be winning.

2020hindsight said:

the Indians are claiming more than one incident apparently ...

http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2008/jan/06bucknored.htm







(Personally I reckon he should be allowed back - but with the option to use the third umpire more often - either at his request or at the request of one or other captain ( limit per game - as already being considered by ICC - file reopened apparently - as per the other thread on "sports technology". )

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interesting 20/20hindsight ... thanks for the post

maybe Bucknor has been on the bookie payroll for years .. its always the quiet ones

2020hindsight said:

the Indians are claiming more than one incident apparently ...

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Geez, if the teams I ref kept such detailed notes of all the wrong or debatable calls I made against them there'd be enough evidence to suggest that I 'cheat' against each and every one of them.

Lol, m8, think I've already mentioned - when I used to play and umpire hockey in HK, (each team was usually of one nationality - Chinese clubs, Uni etc , a few European clubs, Macanese Portugese, Hindus, Sikhs, Moslems, etc) -

but when the Moslems played the Hindus, lol, they were only ever happy if a European umpired (as against from one of other of their faith)

For those jumping on Roebuck's anti-Ponting bandwagon, have a read of this excellent post at another forum (by poster ty.webb).

But let Mr. Roebuck speak for himself:

"Probably the worst aspect of the Australians' performance was their conduct at the end; When the last catch was taken they formed into a huddle and started jumping up and down like teenagers at a rave."

Yep - that's it. Having won an epic battle to tie the record for consecutive test wins, they huddled and jumped. Case for sacking Ponting closed.

Of course, when Harbhajan took Ponting's wicket in the second innings, and carried on as if he had just scored an F.A. Cup-winning goal, Roebuck's view of proceedings may have been obscured. Maybe a hand was covering his one good eye.

Roebuck also argues that Hayden and Gilchrist should go. Here is his entire case against Hayden -

"As usual, Matthew Hayden crossed himself on reaching three figures in his commanding second innings, a gesture he does not perform while wearing the colours of his state. Exactly how he combines his faith with throwing his weight around on the field has long bemused opposing sides, whose fondness for him ran out a long time ago."

Yep - that's it. He either crosses himself too often or not enough enough - which one is left unclear. Apart from that, his opponents aren't fond of him (any more).

As for Gilchrist - well, he made a quip at Tony Greig's expense, an offence apparently so grave that one of cricket's most glorious careers needs to be ended with a dishonourable discharge. Off with his head!

Ater all these years, I can finally understand Ian Botham's point of view regarding Peter Roebuck.

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:topic
Speaking of umpiring and attitudes of umpires, towards umpires/refs, ...

SOCCERR!! - boy I have problems watching the dives and the like - and also the attitude of many refs.

I sat in when my boys did a refereeing course.
the speel was that "mustn't deviate from the smallest sub-sub subclause of the rulebook etc" - constant drumming in that "you could otherwise be sued" etc ???

Anyway - the bloke giving the lesson (had some sort of problem if you ask me) ... he asks them " so you turn up, and the corner of the field where corner kicks would be taken is (locally) under 2 inches of water, - but game is on and notified as such, - ok, in due course they need to take a kick from that corner - what do you do?"

kids come up with some good ideas if you ask me - combined contribution from them went something like - "move it a few metres along one or other line, as agreed with captains beforehand"...

"NO ABSOLUTELY NOT" sez the teacher.
I thought "what the ..."

"No, the groundsman has ruled the field ok to play on, and you can't amend anything. They kick from the corner, flooded or not !"

I thought to myself "what a strange attitude" !

Well the second part of the story - the next week he turned up to talk to the kids, - he had umpired on the weekend in the meantime - he had a black eye. I thought to myself "surprise surpise"

...........................

Quick comment also about soccer dives (and being TAUGHT to dive in some teams) - I once watched the kid's team break away and looked like scoring (at the time they were maybe 12 year olds) - You wouldn't believe what happened if you didn't see it ....

- a kid on the other team looked to his dad (their coach) beside me - got the nod, pretended to fall down tripped , - noone within miles of him, 20 yards behind the play ! - the father / coach runs onto the field calling out " ref ref ! - player down !!" and the game stopped. Sure our team kicked off after time-out finished, but we'd lost all our momentum Bludy marvellous I thought to myself - teaching 12 year olds to cheat .

PS I reckon they should have a rule "Anyone who is given a freekick under controversial circumstances, milked by rolling around on the ground for more than 20 seconds - and who subsequently doesn't show any sign of any damage - should show cause then and there why he shouldn't take a ten minute rest - or more - on the side line. !

Great story. I see so much of it all the time - most officials get so stuck in the rules they miss the big picture.

Incidentally, if that were me and I didn't feel the area of play was safe to play on, I'd be inclined to exercise a duty of care and postpone the game in consultation with tournament officials.

I personally find if you spend as much time as possible talking to players on the field and off the game will take care of itself. 90% of officiating is rapport and communication.

It surely brings the "experts" out of the woodwork...those of the sycophantic type ruled by politcal correctness gone silly and a deprecating piety (you did call yourself Arminius) to a cricket higher being...

Memories are short, and I quote from an article posted on October 12, 2007 by crickinfo :

http://infosports.wordpress.com/200...ed-in-india-say-australian-cricket-officials/
The abuse was widely reported in Australian newspapers, with the Sydney Morning Herald saying the monkey chants were similar to those that have plagued European football for years.

Sydney’s Daily Telegraph said thousands of spectators were involved in the abuse, prompting ground authorities to flash the International Cricket Council’s anti-racism code on the replay screen.

The Australian newspaper quoted Baroda Cricket Association chief executive Makarand Waingankar as saying he was disappointed with the Vadodara crowd’s behaviour.

“Like any cricket centre we cannot tolerate this sort of behaviour; racism should not exist in India,” Waingankar said.

Symonds has been involved in a running feud with Indian paceman Shantha Sreesanth during the tour of the subcontinent.

The Indian series has been clouded by ill temper, stemming in part from discontent within the Australian camp at the way India’s players celebrated their semi-final win over Australia in the Twenty20 World Cup in South Africa


Who were those gentlemen assuring us that there was no malintent by the term "monkey" applied to Symonds?

And...
Was that a turbaned gentleman rolling over the ground in celebration at a significant point in the match? Is that the way Aussies have to celebrate then?

I may not agree with some of Ponting's strategies but he is an effective captain, captaining a team in the 21st century...

By the way, ICC now means Indian Cricket Council?

When my heart whispers peace, I am more content that a person could possibly imagine.http://ctcthoughts.blogspot.com/2006/11/peace-be-with-you.html

doctorj said:

For those jumping on Roebuck's anti-Ponting bandwagon, have a read of this excellent post at another forum (by poster ty.webb).

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a few tangential (and/or strawman?) arguments in that article imo ...
a) the Indians were dudded out of a the game by bad umpiring, and
b) on top of that they get a heavy fine for arguably a pretty minor sledge, with only Aussies as witnesses.

(imo) ..as for Ponting and his attitude, I wouldn't criticise him unduly - he plays hard, pushes his luck every which way with sledging, wins plenty, occasionally does a "Pont" (i.e. noun - a defence whereby you claim not to remember anything after 11pm) , a trail of apologies, possibly inconsistent with his "what happens on the field stays on the field" etc

.. I personally think Border and Steve Waugh had more diplomacy about them. (imo)

but if the umpires pulled him into line for sledging (as they are sure to do to EVERYONE in Perth), then most of the problems would go away, yes?. imo anyway.

I heard today that the Australian's called Jayasuriya a 'spider monkey' and Healey made a very offensive comment to the Sri Lankan captain. They dish out but cant take it.

Bucknor - I like him but he has made significant errors which call for a performance review. Sorry Drj but if Bucknor (in your opinion) is one of the best we have, then we have a problem. He simply isnt up to it, but the manner of his replacement is typical ICC - the soft target. But he should have retired years ago.

I'll be wearing a black arm band at the WACA test in honour of Bucknor and I know several others that will be doing the same.

arminius said:

i am aussie. i love cricket, footy, beer.
ive felt this for a long time, and after the second test i am certain.
ponting should go.
he does not have the attributes of an australian captain.
relieve ricky ponting of the captaincy.

strategy. tactics. diplomacy. sportsmanship. subtlety. wisdom.
not in his vocab.

who instead? hussey

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Probably yes specially when he has supported 100% whatever Ricky has done.

Re: Ricky Ponting should NOT be sacked

doctorj said:

I'll be wearing a black arm band at the WACA test in honour of Bucknor and I know several others that will be doing the same.

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Of course and raise the name of Aussies far more in front of cricket lovers.
Good work mate. Would you also shed some tears for the abnormal originals of Australians who were killed vehemently by the invading pirates from outside Australia some 200 years back ? None of my business as I do not what happened then. Just curious to see your love and affection for the bookies and hence Bucknor.