Religious leader condemns RAPE

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Disgusting remarks by a supposedly peaceful religious leader.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html

 

[2020hindsight]

Disgusting remarks by a supposedly peaceful religious leader.

Maybe he should be the first to be signed up for the "aussie set of values course" they were proposing - sheesh. Youre right snake - disgusting.

 

[Sean K]

Anyone know the actual cultural reason for Arabic women to cover up their modesty? (It's an Arabian thing, not Islamic)

 

[Julia]

His remarks were thoroughly criticised by a female Muslim leader of some sort on today's "Breakfast" programme on ABC Radio. She said such views were entirely at odds with those of the Muslim community and she was completely outraged. (She sounded it!).

This bloke has a habit of coming out with appalling statements. The best thing Australia could do would be to send him back to wherever he came from.

Julia

 

[juddy]

"He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men."

How can intelligent people believe such tripe? Makes you wonder if these people use Iodised salt.

 

[Happy]

From ABC, October 26, 2006. 8:50am (AEST)
Al Hilaly spokesman plays down 'uncovered meat' comments

One of Australia's most senior Muslim clerics is being accused of saying some women are attracting sexual assault by the way they dress and their actions.

But a spokesman for Sheikh Taj el-din Al Hilaly says the quotes have been taken out of context.
The Sheikh is reported to have made the comments in a sermon to worshippers in Sydney last month.
The religious leader of the city's Lebanese Muslim community was quoted as saying that women who do not wear the hijab, or headdress, are like uncovered meat.

The Australian newspaper translated a copy of the cleric's sermon.
Keysar Trad is an associate of Sheikh Al Hilaly.
He says he has spoken to the Mufti, who explained his comments.
"He wasn't talking about rape in any way," Mr Trad said.
"He wasn't talking about standard norms of dress in Australia or any country, he wasn't talking about the hijab, he was talking about people who engage in extramarital sex.

"He's always encouraged fidelity and abstinence until people get married. He was explaining how both men and women should not leave themselves as exposed meat, beyond the normal standards of society.
"He's talking about those people who prey on others - whether they're men or women, who seek to engage in sexual conduct outside of marriage and do so through alluring types of attire."
Shereen Hassan is a an executive committee member of the Islamic Council of Victoria.
She is yet to confirm the newspaper's translation of the Mufti's address.
But she says if it is accurate, she is appalled.

"The comments are absolutely repulsive and offensive to me as a woman. I'm a Muslim woman, I wear a hijab. But I certainly don't wear the hijab to avoid sexual harassment. I wear it to show my love and devotion to God. Full stop. Not for any other reason," she said.

"I definitely will be speaking to him and condemning these comments to his face.
"We don't have the power to make him stand down, but I definitely be having a word to him and pointing out how incredibly offensive these comments are. I will be urging him to retract his statements."

Muslim woman in above quote didn’t think that traditional dress was worn to avoid harassment.

 

[Prospector]

He certainly needs a one way ticket!

Juddy's comment is interesting though.....
"He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men."

Isn't that what Adam was told in the Garden of Eden, metaphorically in the guise of an apple......

 

[Sean K]

The reason women are devils sent by Satan is because men can't control themselves around them. We have this strange biological urge to want to have sex with them. This is an evolutionary thing to assist in the survival of the species.

To answer my own question I posted above, women were required to cover themselves in ancient Arabia to control mens behaviour towards them.

Men are the issue, not women.

 

[visual]

Anyone know the actual cultural reason for Arabic women to cover up their modesty? (It's an Arabian thing, not Islamic)

Kennas I think will answer your question,it came about as a fashion and cultural thing.

Regarding Q24:31, Muhammad Asad explains that Arabian women covered their heads prior to the advent of Islam in the seventh century C.E. The head covering (khimar) was worn as an ornament, hanging down loosely over the wearer’s back. In accordance with the fashion of that era, the upper part of a woman’s tunic had a wide opening in the front, which left her bosom partially exposed. Hence, the command is for the covering of the bosom as an act of modesty, and not for the wearing of the khimar or covering of the head. According to some other commentators, women wore the khimar to keep sand and dust out of their hair. Incidentally, men also wore turbans and traditional long gowns to cover themselves.

http://www.irfi.org/articles/women_in_islam/muslim_women_and_tradition.htm

 

[Sean K]

Kennas I think will answer your question,it came about as a fashion and cultural thing.

Regarding Q24:31, Muhammad Asad explains that Arabian women covered their heads prior to the advent of Islam in the seventh century C.E. The head covering (khimar) was worn as an ornament, hanging down loosely over the wearer’s back. In accordance with the fashion of that era, the upper part of a woman’s tunic had a wide opening in the front, which left her bosom partially exposed. Hence, the command is for the covering of the bosom as an act of modesty, and not for the wearing of the khimar or covering of the head. According to some other commentators, women wore the khimar to keep sand and dust out of their hair. Incidentally, men also wore turbans and traditional long gowns to cover themselves.

http://www.irfi.org/articles/women_in_islam/muslim_women_and_tradition.htm

Thanks Vis.

I always find it very interesting how we seem to cling to the ideas that certain dress or behaviour is religiously based, when in fact, it was a cultural thing, before religion hijacked it. As we are seeing now.

 

[Prospector]

And really too, while I abhor this man's comments totally, it wasnt all that many years ago that the 'she was asking for it' mentally was very pervasive in our society too!

And it also wasn't all that long ago that a woman's past sexual history was able to be questioned in Court whenever a rape allegation was made! Maybe less than 15 years ago in fact!

 

[Happy]

From ABC, October 26, 2006
Anger at Al Hilaly's 'uncovered meat' remarks

A senior Muslim cleric has drawn criticism for reportedly preaching that some women are attracting sexual assault by the way they dress and their actions.
Sheikh Taj el-din Al Hilaly is reported as saying that women who do not wear the hijab, or headdress, are like uncovered meat.
The quotes, taken from a sermon the cleric made in Sydney last month, are published in The Australian today.
The ABC has been unable to contact Sheikh Al Hilaly, but an associate Keysar Trad, says the mufti's comments have been taken out of context.
"He wasn't talking about rape in any way," Mr Trad said.
"He wasn't talking about standard norms of dress in Australia or any country, he wasn't talking about the hijab, he was talking about people who engage in extramarital sex.
But the Federal Sex Discrimination Commissioner and New South Wales Liberal Party candidate, Pru Goward, does not believe the Sheikh can backtrack over his comments.
She says he could be guilty of incitement to the crime of rape, and he should be deported.
"On that basis he can, if his visa arrangements are appropriate, be deported," Ms Goward said.
"I would strongly urge the Islamic leadership to ask him to go, we would all support that.
"There is a pattern of these statements, we are a tolerant people but incitement to the crime of rape is not acceptable."



'Flabbergasted'

A former member of the Federal Government's Muslim Advisory board, Iktimal Hage-Ali, says Sheikh Al Hilaly should be stripped of his position.
Ms Hage-Ali has heard a recording of a speech made by the Sheikh last month, in which he said women can be blamed for attracting sexual assault if they do not dress appropriately.
She says she is disgusted by the comments.
"When it comes to adultery 90 per cent of the blame is on a woman," she said.
"If a woman puts powder on her face and puts lipstick [on] and struts her stuff then she should be held at fault, if a man comes and attacks her and then that analogy about meat and cats. I was just flabbergasted."
The Australian Federal Police (AFP) Commissioner, Mick Keelty, says the furore over comments attributed to the Sheikh may damage relations with the Islamic community.
Commissioner Keelty says the Sheikh's comments could cause links with the Islamic community to be strained.
"What we're trying to do is work closely with the Islamic community - all of us - and understand them better and I guess this just, you know, doesn't help that cause," Commissioner Keelty said.



Political condemnation

The Treasurer Peter Costello has also condemned the reported comments by Sheikh Al Hilaly.
Speaking on Channel 7, Mr Costello said the Muslim community must condemn the comments and take action against the Sheikh.
"If you have a significant religious leader like this preaching to a flock in a situation where we've had gang rapes, in a way that seems to make it justifiable, or at least lighten the dehumanising and degrading extent of the offence, then people that listen to that kind of comment can get the wrong idea," Mr Costello said.
Federal Opposition Leader Kim Beazley says the remarks are offensive and the mufti should apologise for them.
"They are offensive and they should be retracted by him, they should be retracted immediately," Mr Beazley said.
"Those offensive statements should not be permitted to stand."

Definitely there is a pattern in remarks, as it is often mentioned that women are responsible for rape.

This is in my opinion in par with publican responsibility for patron’s drink driving or car being stolen only because it was not locked up.
But rape thing is much more serious remark.

 

[Happy]

And really too, while I abhor this man's comments totally, it wasnt all that many years ago that the 'she was asking for it' mentally was very pervasive in our society too!

And it also wasn't all that long ago that a woman's past sexual history was able to be questioned in Court whenever a rape allegation was made! Maybe less than 15 years ago in fact!

This could be used as proof that our culture moved forward.

 

[Prospector]

This could be used as proof that our culture moved forward.

Absolutely agree, but can we expect other cultures (more ancient cultures too) to move at our pace?

 

[Sean K]

Absolutely agree, but can we expect other cultures (more ancient cultures too) to move at our pace?

Good point Prospector. Many sects of Islam do not want to change with the day and this is the problem. Religion needs to adapt to the present culture for it to be relevant or we run the risk of perpetuating a way of living suitable for a time when the Earth was flat.

Indonesian Islam has adapted slightly, out of necessity, and is quite rich. Many 'Muslims' in Indonesia still practive Animism, and ancestor worship. Combined with elements of Hindu and Buddhism their 'Islam' is incredibly rich. But it's not really Islam.

 

[Happy]

Maybe before permission for settlement on Australian soil is granted, authorities should be satisfied the cultural differences are not going to be an issue.

Acceptance of our values and cultural achievements, ridiculed as soon as was mentioned, seems to have some merit in it.


And maybe Australian citizens, who have problem with our standards, should be sent to UN camps for relocation to area that would better suit their needs.

 

[2020hindsight]

Isn't that what Adam was told in the Garden of Eden, metaphorically in the guise of an apple......

Prospector - it wasnt the apple in the tree that was the problem it was the pear in the bushes I wonder how many kids come home from Sunday school and tell their parents that they're not allowed to eat apples any more.

Like the one about the Iranian strip club - where the men all chant (from the tables in the shadows) "show us your face, show us your face". It would be funny - if only "God" had given this dude in the black dress a sense of humour. (No insult intended to Muslim women btw - my guess is they have a better chance of seeing the funny side). Personally I'd like to think that morals (Muslim or Christian or just plain old fshioned honesty) and sense of humour are not mutually exclusive.

You are now entering religion X, or Y or Z, please leave your sense of humour in the cloakroom. Women:- Any flirting punishable by being buried up to your neck and being stoned to death. Men :- any response to flirting - just say that the woman concerned was wearing horns - and well you were just horny (which is COMPLETELY different).

mmm Then there's the other one - Jesus says "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - and after a pause this single stone comes flying over from the back of the crowd.... Jesus peers through the crowd, and sighs " sometimes mother dear you p*** me off!"

 

[Dukey]

G'day all.

Just an idea that crossed my mind as i read the report on Mufti's sermon ... He has basically stated that Muslim men (some of them i guess - being kind) lose control if they see something sexually enticing about a woman.
Now - I'm sure all of us guys have on many an occasion seen 'underdressed' women in our travels - you only have to go as far as the local beach - and sure its tittilating for a while - but we hardly lose control and commit rape. And of course most Muslim men don't either. (edit... maybe the whole idea of 'underdressed' is dodgy anyway ... we were all born naked weren't we??)
I think there are 2 important factors at play to consider
1. Gang culture, mixed with the idea that women are "tools of the devil". Outside of the group - some of these guys may not have committed rape - but who really knows. Either way its a condemnation of the Islamic attitude to women.

2. Islam is a culture of suppression of Women AND sexual repression - which may well cause the kind of uncontrolled desires - especially in the 'safety' and 'reassurance' of a gang context. But in the end - another condemnation of islamic attitude to women and sex.

... basically - it just doesn't work to tell people they can't do something that is a purely natural urge of the Human species. How can such a society function??

 

[2020hindsight]

Now - I'm sure all of us guys have on many an occasion seen 'underdressed' women in our travels - you only have to go as far as the local beach - and sure its tittilating .........
I think there are 2 important factors at play to consider
1. Gang culture, mixed with the idea that women are "tools of the devil".
2. Islam is a culture of suppression of Women AND sexual repression ....
... basically - it just doesn't work to tell people they can't do something (sex) that is a purely natural

M8 - If I can just add a few comments - whether they contribute or not.

I'll post a poem on the poetry thread which suggests that "the man who hasnt fallen in lust with a women stranger is a hypocrite" - written by CJ Dennis no less (of Sentimental Bloke fame lol). But it goes without saying that he would be horrified to think that rape was legitimately on the menu.(??). Only an idiot like Al Hilaly would draw that conclusion, sheesh.

1. Gang rape? there were some horrible quotes from the transcripts of those gang rape cases in Sydney ... Moslem boys , "Australian" girls. THESE BOYS WERE FRINGE DWELLERS - BUT WERE THEY UNDER AL HILALY INFLUENCE OR SIMILAR? HOW MANY MORE OF THEM?.
a) Firstly they would call them "aussie sluts" continually throughout the ordeal (so what were they if not aussie? Lebanese?).
b) Secondly they considered themselves superior because of their religion. c) Thirdly infidels derserve all they get.
d) Fourthly it's ok to lie to the police in aus because they are infidels too. e) Then they interviewed the Lebanese family - the young daughter was dressed as provocatively as I have seen any Aussie dressed in a long time - the Channel 9 interviewer caught her out as a hypocrite every time she opened her mouth "you think I'd admit to dating boys in front of my grandfather?" - she had lipstick 5mm thick !!

2. They say that the Police report that has brought down Carl Skully is EXPLOSIVE on this subject. Like the potential for a MASSIVE racial war was bludy real. Carloads of these kids who flagrantly organised an attack on another suburb - and got away with it. They needn't dob their mates in - to an INFIDEL? you 've gotta be kidding!

3. I have seen planeloads of Arabs arriving in the Philippines and Thailand from the middle east - and STRAIGHT to the brothels - such hypocricy its pukeworthy. It seems men arent required to show any self control at all. o boy.

4. Well not much point in those particular arabs travelling to the "Romantic" cities like Rome or Paris, where women wear sheesh REALLY sexy getups - no point going there, they'd be arrested for rape in the first 5 minutes !!

5. On the positive side, I strongly encourage the Muslim church to get rid of this Al Hilaly. It would be SUCH a relief, SUCH a vote of confidence in a positive future where we can start to understand each other's views.

As a Moslim lady said on ABC this morning - "let's get a Mufti that can communicate - that can talk in English for a start, and secondly who makes sense!!" - paraphrased. Hear Hear girl!!

 

[nizar]

Disgusting remarks by a supposedly peaceful religious leader.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html

I agree. That man is a disgrace.