Religion preying on our youth

Nicks · 2 November 2006

Ok, movnig on from misinterpretations, sorry Julia and Spacecadet, just remember when talking religion and politics this can happen....

That said I like talking about these two subjects. I respect everyones view (so long as the views dont support harm to another person) Here is my view:

- Too many people on earth.
- I am athiest.
- I respect people who believe in religion thats non fanatical and non harming. Many good people who do many good things. I agree with some of the things and concepts some of the religions have.
- I dislike and disagree with some things in some religions, some more than others and am totally against some.
- I believe in being a good person and helping others.
- I have no problem with sex outside of marriage (marriage is a thing we invented, but it is a nice thing though)
- I believe religion should not interfere with research or contraception, however they are free not to practice either.
- We are creatures on earth just like the rest, have blood, brains, hearts and limbs like many other creatures and lucky enough to have probably the highest intelligence, just like horses are lucky enough to have higher intelligence than mice.
- We most probably evolved to get where we are now (ie would be different creatures to our ancestors 500,000 years ago who would be different to both of our ancestors again 5000,000 years ago etc etc)
- Religion has no place in politics, other than representation from someone elected, just like the rest of us expect representation
- Those elected are often (not always) sc**bags concerned often with their own self interests.
- I dont like smoking and cigarette butts : )

I could go on. Just thought some people might be intested in my views as I have been many of yours. I guess there is something in here that everyone can find to disagree with!!

Cheers
Nick

weird · 2 November 2006

Two Catholic clergy face court in NZ

Kennas, I think you will find Judges, Police officers, school teachers have committed similar crimes ... so your point is ?

Rafa · 2 November 2006

kennas said:
#1 -- You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history -- but you still call yourself a Christian.

Only a fundamentalist christian fanatic or a fundamentalist aethiest/agnostic fanatic, (is that you kennas), would know so much about the Bible, Christianity and Church History...

Because for them, the literal meaning is more important than the intent...

I know what it is to be a Christian, and that is straight out of Jesus's mouth...

Love God and Love they Neighbour...

The Gospels are the only account is Jesus' actual teachings.
Everything is else in the Good Book is written by Man, and hence should be treated as such.

Rafa · 2 November 2006

weird said:
Kennas, I think you will find Judges, Police officers, school teachers have committed similar crimes ... so your point is ?

I think Kennas is saying all Catholics are child molesters...
Just like you are saying all Judges, Police Officer and teachers are too...

Kennas, this ain't the US mid terms, you do not need to resort to cheap shots and mud slinging to prove your point!

Sean K · 2 November 2006

weird said:
Kennas, I think you will find Judges, Police officers, School teachers have committed similar crimes ... so your point is ?

You are correct, but aren't clergy supposed to God's messengers etc. This supports my contention that we are all just human. No one is actually special. Why would I confide in these type of people and trust them with my spiritual guidance (and children) when they are just as deranged as the next person. These people are the representatives of the church. The example of what the church and the religion stands for.

When priests and ministers are sprouting how to live a 'moral' life, they MUST be beyond reproach. The few bad eggs (well, seemingly quite a few) have reduced the priesthood's credibility to zip.

I do want to talk about Antioch soon. The cult of the Catholic Church in Australia responsible for brainwashing children......

Sean K · 2 November 2006

Rafa said:
I think Kennas is saying all Catholics are child molesters...
Just like you are saying all Judges, Police Officer and teachers are too...

Kennas, this ain't the US mid terms, you do not need to resort to cheap shots and mud slinging to prove your point!

Sorry, not slinging mud. Presenting a news article from The Age this am.

And definately not saying all Catholics are child molesters obviously. You must be just having a joke with me....I know some great Catholics, but I do discuss religion with them and disagree with them on why they need to get their morals from the book and The Pope (that guy living in a castle in Italy which houses the worlds greatest treasures - many pillaged from The Crusades and Spanish Conquests), and not just from what is best in the society they are living in right now.

weird · 2 November 2006

Kennas,

http://www.catholic.com/library/A_Crisis_of_Saints.asp

"Jesus didn't choose Judas to betray him. But Judas was always free, and he used his freedom to allow Satan to enter into him, and by his betrayal Jesus was crucified and executed. But God foresaw this evil and used to accomplish the ultimate good: the redemption of the world.

The point is, sometimes God's chosen ones betray him. That is a fact that we have to confront. If the early Christians had focused only on the scandal caused by Judas, the Church would have been finished before it even started to grow. Instead they recognized that you don't judge a movement by those who don't live it but by those who do. Rather than focusing on the betrayer, they focused on the other eleven on account of whose work, preaching, miracles, and love for Christ we are here today. It is on account of the other eleven-all of whom except John were martyred for Christ and for the gospel they proclaimed-that we ever heard the saving word of God, that we ever received the sacraments of eternal life."

Rafa · 2 November 2006

kennas said:
Sorry, not slinging mud. Presenting a news article from The Age this am.

Well, look like taking cheap shots to me, rather irrelevant....

Anyway...

I tend to agree that power vested in humans is always dangerous, eg dictatorships, royal dynasties, etc, etc... Yes, and all the worlds great musuems contian artifacts from historic conquests... Lourve, the Hermitage, British Museum, etc... Why... that was humans do, we collect stuff!

SO back to your question...

why they need to get their morals from the book

well, you gotta base it on something, and i'd rather base it on something that has stood the test of time...

you asked a few pages to go... why not give this new method a shot... well, if you are happy to treat your kids as monkeys in a lab, go for it... I for one am not.

Sadly, the results of these 'social' experiments, just to appease a philosophy students trying to get their PhD are present in society today.

Its started 20-30 years ago, and we are already turning out kids with no sense of identity, purpose and goals, resulting in the highest numbers (% wise) of alcoholism, drug use, complete lack of an understanding of what is right and wrong... indulging in short term consumerism for temporary happiness...

i could go on and on...

Its easy for you and me kennas, we already have our sense of identity and purpose firmly set in stone... and have the power to think for ourselves and make informed decisions.

you have to start thinking of future generations tho

as noika said...

If religion is the only thing preying on our youth we are in a good state.

Happy · 2 November 2006

From ABC, November 2, 2006

Home-grown terrorists 'a serious problem in Aust'

The head of the Australian Security and Intelligence Organisation (ASIO) has revealed his surprise at the number of Australians seeking to carry out terrorist attacks.
ASIO director-general Paul O'Sullivan spoke last night at the National Press Club in Canberra.
He was asked if he was surprised when he started in the job by the number of young Australians moving overseas to receive terrorism training before returning home.
"The answer to the question is that I was surprised to see that we do have a serious problem in Australia," he said.
"One possibility is that people come here self-contained intending to do harm, a second possibility is that people come here and recruit locally as it were and put together a sort of partly external and partly domestic scenario, and then the third possibility the one you're alluding to is where people are home-grown and I think it does come as something of a shock to see that there are home-grown people who would like to do harm in this country."

Part of the problem is that a lot of people just live here in Australia.

Somebody comes here at some stage, embraces the culture and way of life, or brings in own values and hates part or all of what is here, brings up children, guides them certain way and as above quote suggests, some might be blown to pieces as confirmation of –theory-.

But if this happened in UK, and we have the same system or at least very similar why we can expect something else?

Today’s vote on Nine MSN -

Poll: Do you fear a terror attack in your home town?

http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http://news.ninemsn.com.au/vote%

Sean K · 2 November 2006

I didn't see the comment from Noika before.

My question then..

Why not remove religion from the equation, and then there's nothing preying on our children.

My point in placing the article in this thread is that the 'brothers' raped and abused children. While any old person in the street may be capable of this, as you pointed out, it's mearly adding an extra argument to my point, that religion preys on youth in many ways. Weather that's by trying convert them while they are young and vulnerable, or sexually assault them.

weird · 2 November 2006

kennas said:
or sexually assault them.

Kennas, read the responses to your arguments ... this is just getting abit silly now ... I think you will find sufficient apologetics on the internet that will answer almost any of your questions anyhow.

C.S.Lewis has quite a few excellent books which explain Christianity (such as Mere Christianity).

He has a very good explanation of one of the more unpopular Christian’s views on sex.

Come back to us with better arguments.

Rafa · 2 November 2006

kennas said:
that religion preys on youth in many ways. Weather that's by trying convert them while they are young and vulnerable, or sexually assault them.

What happened to you when you were young kennas???

If you think removing religion will remove the sexual assualts, or terrorism, or whatever other evils, then i'm afraid you are very naive.

you need to separte the two... the divine from the man made.

Evils are committed by humans kennas... and will continue to be comiited as long as we are around!

And politicians will use whatever they can to gain power, religion is just one of the motivating factors in incite wars

Nationalism, Racism, are two more... i am sure you can name many more... u know the old British policy of Divide and Rule...

So whats next, when religion is wiped out and there are still wars, then abolish countries.... then abolish cultures, then abolish race... (not sure how besides genocide)...

If you really want utopia kennas, you should stop focussing on getting rid of religion, but rather focus on getting rid of greed, envy, etc...

But you will fail, because these traits, are part of being human.
And we certainly don't want to work towards getting rid of ourselves!

Sean K · 2 November 2006

Rafa said:
What happened to you when you were young kennas???

If you really want utopia kennas, you should stop focussing on getting rid of religion, but rather focus on getting rid of greed, envy, etc...

But you will fail, because these traits, are part of being human.
And we certainly don't want to work towards getting rid of ourselves!

Nothing really. Just started thinking one day.

Oh, I do agree! Humans are just animals fighting for survival. Ultimately, it's why we do everything and anything.

Sean K · 2 November 2006

weird said:
Kennas, read the responses to your arguments ... this is just getting abit silly now ... I think you will find sufficient apologetics on the internet that will answer almost any of your questions anyhow.

C.S.Lewis has quite a few excellent books which explain Christianity (such as Mere Christianity).

He has a very good explanation of one of the more unpopular Christian’s views on sex.

Come back to us with better arguments.

The point is that young children are taken advantage of by people in authority and power. What greater power than the Priest?

2020hindsight · 2 November 2006

Rafa said:
Well, look like taking cheap shots to me, rather irrelevant....SO back to your question...
Sadly, the results of these 'social' experiments, just to appease a philosophy students trying to get their PhD are present in society today.

Its easy for you and me kennas, we already have our sense of identity and purpose firmly set in stone... and have the power to think for ourselves and make informed decisions.

Rafa
cheap shots? - I read Kennas posts - then your replies - and I conclude that this is all going - if not over your head - then intentinoally in one ear and no attempt to intercept / question / crossexamine the concept before it emerges from the other!!

Social experiments - if you are referring to stem cell research, so championed by Chris Reeve (superman) as a ray of hope for quadraplegics, I agree that we should have a consistent set of morals - nothing to do with JC that one - try Plato, and probably thousands of thinkers - no millions - before that. But are you saying you won't partake in the benefits of this research? - maybe we should get a list of PhD studies, research that directly help the likes of you and me, here now today, and based on "questionable" ethics in your eyes. (like the Jehovahs Witnesses who interpret the Bible that you shouldn't have blood transfusions - "OVER my dead body " as they say - idiotic of course, but at least you can give them credit for having the courage of their convictions)

PS Weird , you mention "Mere Christiamity " - NOW you're talking. Lets concentrate on the worthy teachings of the carpenter. Forget the heaven and hell stuff.

BTW theres absolutely no question (you'll agree I hope) that JC thought that the world was flat - or would you chritians here contest that ? _ And these days "wise men" who wlak around the desert following stars are treated with some academic ... ummm ... suspicion.

Sean K · 2 November 2006

This thread seems to have gone down the Christain v Reason perspective which is understandable given the demographics of ASF members, but I would like to state that I did not intend this. My contention is that ALL religions try to get hold of children as young as possible, before they can think for themselves, and convert them to their particular faith.

One of the most threatening things occuring around the world atm, imo, is the Islamic schools brainwashing children in societies that are very poor and unsettled. With no prospects for work and perceived to be opressed by the Western Christain world, these children are the Jihadists and martyrs of the future.

Anyone seen Syriana? There is a tremendous example of how Muslim youth are recruited to be suicide bombers. Scarey.

Rafa · 2 November 2006

2020hindsight said:
Rafa
Social experiments - if you are referring to stem cell research, so championed by Chris Reeve (superman) as a ray of hope for quadraplegics,

....

BTW theres absolutely no question (you'll agree I hope) that JC thought that the world was flat - or would you chritians here contest that ? _ And these days "wise men" who wlak around the desert following stars are treated with some academic ... ummm ... suspicion.

2020, you haven't obiously read anything i have written either...
By social experiments, I am talking about what is happening, and been happening in our public schools for the last 20 years... and the results that are presenting themselves daily...

The social experiment i am referring to was...
'lets not teach kids what is right and wrong, based on faith or religion, or whatever, rather lets teach them that anything goes, as long as you really beleive it to be true... ! lets not teach them about respect, discipline, morality, history, etc, etc...

That is what i meant!

and about the world being flat...
Once again, there is no where in the Gospels Jesus proclaiming the world is flat and always will be!

Please don't blame him for the people in the middle ages held onto this dogma, wherever it came from!

As i have said all along, the followers of all religions are only human, are are swayed by greed, enny and a lust of power!

And the classic example is the terrorist movement today...

But what i was saying to Kennas earlier, is you remove religion, there are other motivating forces for war.... Nationalism, Racism, etc... Don't think removing religion will solve that problem.

Humans will continue fighting, cause its all about survival, and its in our nature to be envious, greedy, power hungry, etc. Don't blame religion for that!

Erradicating religion, as the social experiment in western public schools has shown, only does more harm than good.

Sean K · 2 November 2006

Rafa said:
But what i was saying to Kennas earlier, is you remove religion, there are other motivating forces for war.... Nationalism, Racism, etc... Don't think removing religion will solve that problem.

Humans will continue fighting, cause its all about survival, and its in our nature to be envious, greedy, power hungry, etc. Don't blame religion for that!

Erradicating religion, as the social experiment in western public schools has shown, only does more harm than good.

I do agree that the route cause of all problems is humans themselves. Religion is just the vehicle often used to justify action. (that doesn't make it ok)

So, let's get rid of all the humans. Well, let's say 80%, then people won't be confined in such a small place and end up fighting. Worlds problems solved! Serious.

Rafa · 2 November 2006

kennas said:
So, let's get rid of all the humans. Well, let's say 80%, then people won't be confined in such a small place and end up fighting. Worlds problems solved! Serious.

i like that

not to metion the benefits to the environment...

But in all seriousness, as long as we have different religions, races, cultures, hair colours, eye colours, skin colours, etc, etc... some wise politician will try to use that to gain power.

But imagine how boring the world would be if we were all the same!

Sean K · 2 November 2006

Rafa said:
i like that
not to metion the benefits to the environment...

But in all seriousness, as long as we have different religions, races, cultures, hair colours, eye colours, skin colours, etc, etc... some wise politician will try to use that to gain power.

But imagine how boring the world would be if we were all the same!

Well, if the female half all looked like Prospector I'd be happy.

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