Religion preying on our youth

barney · 6 October 2006

kennas said:
Barney, really want to catch up on this tomorrow, when the brain is connected with the fingers....

You may have started a monster here Kennas...................PS As the (drunk) comedian on the Footy show said..........I've had a couple of beers.........well a few..............................................A LOT............. ..........Had a couple myself tonight (not working...again!) so we might have been a good match! Its interesting to read everyones slant on "religion" etc................I reckon most people don't give it much (in depth) thought...............we all get wrapped up in our day to day lives and can become very selfish (not on purpose), but when it all boils down to it, everyone should have a concept of where they came from/meaning of life etc (and you don't have to be "churchy" to do that) A devout atheist has probably contemplated his existence more than most, because he has come to the conclusion that he is just that..........One of my best friends is an atheist, and I would trust my life with him more than almost anyone.............My wife has never been a "church goer", yet has "christian" values that put most "christians" to shame............As Bullhill said earlier....as long as you are a good person....which I agree with, but then you could ask....who determines what a "good" person is..............If there is no God for eg. what is wrong with being a totally selfish uncaring whatever..............Some would say.that is anti-social....but why do people have to be "sociable".....To fit in??! To be accepted...to Belong etc..........Is this "normal" or abnormal? Who really knows.................In the end it is up to the individual to work out their own philosophies on life.............so in my opinion the only disservice people can do to themselves is to NOT contemplate their origin and where they may be on their exit! ...............bit like Technical Analysis ............ .....Enough rambling (think I've sobered up Cheers to all..........Sorry if I bored you.

Hey 20/20, Did you write that "piece?" Well done if you did...... I liked the bit about "clubbing" the wife in the cave.........funny............

2020hindsight · 7 October 2006

barney said:
20/20, Did you write that "piece?".....

Puts a new slant on "night clubbing" with the missus yes? lol.
Mate here's one slightly more serious ...

IF I WERE GOD
If I were the God of Light ..in the Christian twist of the word,
And some Bishops pretended I’d said that a gay man's excluded, or “Heaven’s deferred”,
I’d probably question their motives..and tell them their vision was blurred,
Or lacking in empathy, praps homophobic, and certainly downright absurd.
We’re no two the same .. so let’s tone down the blame..
(And judging ..and sledging ..and pastlife redredging)
And the heat and the hate incurred.

If I were the God of Love..as the Islamic followers say,
And men draped in BLACK! said that wives should be stoned, if suspected of going astray,
And just on the word of some madman..and quoting My name all the way,
To kill her by pellets from rampaging zealots, - I’d probably lean towards “nay”.
- You’ll guess how I dress, from my rainbow caress
of my wife-world, my life-world, my not-without-strife world,
So lovingly sculptured from clay.

If I were the God of the Righteous, and I mean in the global sense
And somebody said that the answer was “might”, and that killing was not an offence,
Or a volunteer bomber could somehow find “Bliss”, from the moment of impact and hence-
I’d prob’ly say “Son, just give-it-a-miss, ..and don’t be so God-damned dense!.”
Salvation my boy is a well informed joy,
(Enlightened, less frightened, and ranting-much-quietened,)
where you argue – like gents - at the fence.

If I were the God of the Living, ..and somebody came up and said
That some quote from some Biblical text or Koran..predicted some horrible dread,
Abandoned by Keeper, some monster Grim Reaper who mega-throws worlds on their head ! -
I’m here, just ignore it (cos I never saw it), and don’t be so easily lead.
Predictions like that .. when the world was flat..
(Begotten, forgotten, from-some-old-dude’s-jottin’)
are inept (you can take it as read).

But…But…But (sigh)
But If I were the Mother of Nature, ..and my world was a breaking shell,
And someone was pouring black oil on my birds…and poisoning, slowly, the well,
And deserts were growing like wildfire.. and wildfires were burning like Hell,
I’d be just a tiddy- wee-bit concerned, …And I’d probably opt to sell !!
Or make a new pact to clean up my act,
(this dome, my home, where I love to roam)
and try to make patient well;
And stare down their eyes when they rabidly foam,
while ringing some Heavenly bell.

needless to say I wish we'd spend more time arguing about what we are going to leave behind (this planet) than about whether we are gonna go to Heaven or not

barney · 7 October 2006

needless to say I wish we'd spend more time arguing about what we are going to leave behind (this planet) than about whether we are gonna go to Heaven or not

Point well made and well taken 20X2 (Notice I put it in green in respect for the earth!!)
You could perhaps start a poets thread!!

Heaven is a concept I know nothing about other than what we were "taught" (or should I say brainwashed growing up in sunday school. ................ Not sure I'd want to live forever.......having enough trouble getting to 50 Might have something to do with the rediculously late hours I stay up till

2020hindsight · 7 October 2006

Not sure I'd want to live forever.......having enough trouble getting to 50. Might have something to do with the ridiculously late hours I stay up till

Lol - like the dyslexic agnostic insomniac my friend - stayed awake ... YEAH YEAH WE KNOW!! lol
(personally I have no doubt at all that theres a dog)
BTW, you know what DNA stands for i assume - National Dyslexic Assocn.
- Leave you and the late shift to sort out all these problems mate - to the tune of that gently weeping guitar of yours Me - I've decided that these problems are probably still gonna be around tomorrow lol. adios amigo - maniana

2020hindsight · 7 October 2006

Barney - found a couple of quotes - that could have been written specifically for part-time working musos:- http://www.wisdomquotes.com/cat_religion.html or was it cat_ ethics I forget.
Barbara Ehrenreich: Personally, I have nothing against work, particularly when performed, quietly and unobtrusively, by someone else. I just don't happen to think it's an appropriate subject for an "ethic."

Barbara Ehrenreich: I was raised the old-fashioned way, with a stern set of moral principles: Never lie, cheat, steal or knowingly spread a venereal disease. Never speed up to hit a pedestrian or, or course, stop to kick a pedestrian who has already been hit. From which it followed, of course, that one would never ever -- on pain of deletion from dozens of Christmas card lists across the country -- vote Republican.

barney · 7 October 2006

2020hindsight said:
Barney - found a couple of quotes - that could have been written specifically for part-time working musos:- http://www.wisdomquotes.com/cat_religion.html

Barbara Ehrenreich: Personally, I have nothing against work, particularly when performed, quietly and unobtrusively, by someone else. I just don't happen to think it's an appropriate subject for an "ethic."

Barbara Ehrenreich: I was raised the old-fashioned way, with a stern set of moral principles: Never lie, cheat, steal or knowingly spread a venereal disease. Never speed up to hit a pedestrian or, or course, stop to kick a pedestrian who has already been hit. From which it followed, of course, that one would never ever -- on pain of deletion from dozens of Christmas card lists across the country -- vote Republican.

Very funny 40 (Do you like the way I've abbreviated your name??)

Some great quotes on that link.............here's one I liked ..........

Mark TWAIN

In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.

Sean K · 7 October 2006

weird said:
Kennas, after you sleep it off, I'm still curious why Christianity is bugging you so much to make this original post. Are you starting out on your trip on the Road to Damascus ?

Hi Weird, It's not just Christianity, but all religion that, well, doesn't completely bug me, but amaze me. There are many good values taught through religion, but they need not be based on religion. Most of the 'good' things about religious teachings are pretty well common sence. Do not kill, steal, yada yada. I mean really, we don't need an entire institution to tell us these common sence things.

All religion fascinates me and the study of why we have invented it. As one poster said, it's a product of the human species, a result of our culture. God did not make us, we made God. In our image no less.

(Must say, all of this is obviously just IMHO, of course)

While religion has done some good things around the world, (and some despicable) the time for religion is coming to an end. We understand how the world works in the most part now. We have secular governments and legal systems that control society. (Religion through history was also a mechanism of control). We do not need the 'Gods' to support us in too many ways now because we understand what the sun is, where rain comes from, and why crops fail. The last thing remaining unanswered really is the origin of the Universe and what was before....But is religion answering that for us? No, it does not. Find an answer to that in any of the good books. The answer from religion is simply that God was there and made all this up for us out of cosmic dust, which came from where......??

Anyway, my original point for this post was that religion tries to trap young people and influence them in believing the churches views and indoctinate them while they are vulnerable. That's why the majority of Primary schools around the world are actually run by churches. It's why parents also unwittingly are encouraged to ensure their children go to church early in life before they can think for themselves. Children should be taught to think first and then decide if religion is what they want. And NGOs should not be allowed to preach AT ALL when they are providing 'humanitarian' support, with money granted by the Government. (World Vision is the main culpret here)

Let's create a secular world where all laws and ethics are based on logic and common sence, that are based on what's best for the greater number in our culture right now, and not on some extraterrestrial's ramblings to some old schizophrenic dudes in the desert thousands of years ago.

barney · 7 October 2006

kennas said:
Hi Weird, It's not just Christianity, but all religion that, well, doesn't completely bug me, but amaze me. There are many good values taught through religion, but they need not be based on religion. Most of the 'good' things about religious teachings are pretty well common sence. Do not kill, steal, yada yada. I mean really, we don't need an entire institution to tell us these common sence things.

All religion fascinates me and the study of why we have invented it. As one poster said, it's a product of the human species, a result of our culture. God did not make us, we made God. In our image no less.

(Must say, all of this is obviously just IMHO, of course)

While religion has done some good things around the world, (and some despicable) the time for religion is coming to an end. We understand how the world works in the most part now. We have secular governments and legal systems that control society. (Religion through history was also a mechanism of control). We do not need the 'Gods' to support us in too many ways now because we understand what the sun is, where rain comes from, and why crops fail. The last thing remaining unanswered really is the origin of the Universe and what was before....But is religion answering that for us? No, it does not. Find an answer to that in any of the good books. The answer from religion is simply that God was there and made all this up for us out of cosmic dust, which came from where......??

Anyway, my original point for this post was that religion tries to trap young people and influence them in believing the churches views and indoctinate them while they are vulnerable. That's why the majority of Primary schools around the world are actually run by churches. It's why parents also unwittingly are encouraged to ensure their children go to church early in life before they can think for themselves. Children should be taught to think first and then decide if religion is what they want. And NGOs should not be allowed to preach AT ALL when they are providing 'humanitarian' support, with money granted by the Government. (World Vision is the main culpret here)

Let's create a secular world where all laws and ethics are based on logic and common sence, that are based on what's best for the greater number in our culture right now, and not on some extraterrestrial's ramblings to some old schizophrenic dudes in the desert thousands of years ago.

Hi there Kennas, Hope the wines worn off Nearly lunchtime..........might be time for a midday chaser (I meant coffee!)

I agree to much of your sentiment, even if I differ on the God bit (Actually the bit about the schizophrenic dudes in the desert made me chuckle....very funny ...............The way I look at it, no amount of anyone "preaching" here is gona change yours or my mind re what we believe/think.........but I still think it is good to keep an open mind re "God/creation/evolution of life etc" For my part I have felt a "presence" looking after me" most of my life, and I dont mean that in a wimpy way.........I've had a lot of crap dealt up to me over the years, as we all no doubt have............I don't "use" God as a crutch for my woes.......I'm actually more inclined to have a joke with "him/her/whatever" and often "give him a serve" about stuff.............Lets face it, IF God is real (I believe God"s" not just one, cause life is about families....male and female...its the basic concept behind everything...why would God be any different?) Anyway if he is our overeseer, (and thats my concept of "my" God ) then he has to be able to take a joke, and criticism...and he does IMO.............Anyway maybe I'm a bit weird (but I'm not schitzo.....I promise

PS Re the kidz in school..Its a difficult problem...........perhaps we should simply concentrate on teaching them good values and leave the "religious stuff" out of it..........dont really know....I guess I'd much prefer my children to be taught christian values than atheism for example......Cheers Barney

Sean K · 7 October 2006

barney said:
Hi there Kennas, Hope the wines worn off Nearly lunchtime..........might be time for a midday chaser (I meant coffee!)

I agree to much of your sentiment, even if I differ on the God bit (Actually the bit about the schizophrenic dudes in the desert made me chuckle....very funny ...............The way I look at it, no amount of anyone "preaching" here is gona change yours or my mind re what we believe/think.........but I still think it is good to keep an open mind re "God/creation/evolution of life etc" For my part I have felt a "presence" looking after me" most of my life, and I dont mean that in a wimpy way.........I've had a lot of crap dealt up to me over the years, as we all no doubt have............I don't "use" God as a crutch for my woes.......I'm actually more inclined to have a joke with "him/her/whatever" and often "give him a serve" about stuff.............Lets face it, IF God is real (I believe God"s" not just one, cause life is about families....male and female...its the basic concept behind everything...why would God be any different?) Anyway if he is our overeseer, (and thats my concept of "my" God ) then he has to be able to take a joke, and criticism...and he does IMO.............Anyway maybe I'm a bit weird (but I'm not schitzo.....I promise

PS Re the kidz in school..Its a difficult problem...........perhaps we should simply concentrate on teaching them good values and leave the "religious stuff" out of it..........dont really know....I guess I'd much prefer my children to be taught christian values than atheism for example......Cheers Barney

My concept of my personal 'God' is my karmic force which is shaped by me and the environment I am in. Kaos has it's role in all life, but we can shape our life by our decisions and the 'force' that is overseeing me is simply all the factors of life drawn together at each moment; controlling, influencing, directing, and protecting me. Perhaps the same as your 'God'. Nothing special, or cosmic, about mine though. It's just the sum of me and my environment. Maybe a bit prosaic and boring, but it's more real to me than the spirit world which seems to be out of my control.

hector · 7 October 2006

kennas,

Found this link while hunting for ute accessories that might interest you regarding church influence over its members

http://www.blueys.com.au/meaningoflife.htm

"CHURCH BURNOUT SYNDROME

Church Burnout Syndrome (CBS) is a disease that I believe afflicts many Christians. I am an expert on the subject - I suffered from it for over 20 years. Thank God I now know the cure, and already above I have shared that cure with you above.

What are the root causes of CBS ?

Our "Christian tradition" hands it to us on a plate - we swallow it without question. From Day One in Sunday School, we are taught the Ten Commandments as the standard of personal performance in the Christian life.
As we reach puberty we are further depressed by the teachings of Matthew, which church leaders use to show us its not just physical performance that is required of us, but mind/heart self-control as well. (While Jesus was teaching the Pharisees the true meaning of the Law, they interpret these teachings as the model for New Testament behavior.) We're branded as rebellious when we fail to make the grade. We also see the hypocrisy of our teachers, which fuels our rebelliousness
If we do question what we are taught, we are branded "disruptive" or worse still we have a "poor spirit" and are encouraged to "worship with another congregation more in tune with your own ways".
Some church leaders preach faith, but then fail to trust God to speak into the hearts of His people as He has promised He will do. Lacking trust in God to lead His people individually, many (most ?) leaders take over in ways that are the exact opposite of Biblical teaching. They ignore 1 Peter 5 - they become "masters" over us (for our own good of course, because we are spiritually immature.)
Most churches are into "behaviour modification" rather than "spiritual revelation". They fail to realise, in spite of the weight of human history, that the only permanent changes that take place in the human heart and mind are changes that require zero personal effort.
Most churches appear to interpret Scripture from the perspective of "the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil". They are predominantly "sin conscious" rather than "God conscious".
They need our money to promulgate "the system", so they twist and manipulate Scripture to gain the necessary control. Just as sewers breed rats, so the manipulation of Scripture breeds CBS."

Cheers

kerosam · 7 October 2006

i wonder if the general public or media distinguishes the difference between 'catholics' & 'evangelicals' when the word 'christian' pops up?

regarding, science in christianity, has anyone has read books or articles from "Answers in Genesis" (www.answersingenesis.org)? it can be a good place to start about creation. Personally, if i want to know about a particular subject, I prefer to 'do my own research' then rely on what the media says.

my 2 cts.

nelly · 8 October 2006

I kinda liked this...

If they know of him at all, many folks think Ben Stein is just a quirky actor/comedian who talks in a monotone. He's also a very intelligent attorney who knows how to put ideas and words together in such a way as to sway juries and make people think clearly. The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary, Sunday, 12/18/05. Herewith at this happy time of year, a few confessions from my beating heart: I have no freaking clue who Nick and Jessica are. I see them on the cover of People and Us constantly when I am buying my dog biscuits and kitty litter. I often ask the checkers at the grocery stores. They never know who Nick and Jessica are either. Who are they? Will it change my life if I know who they are and why they have broken up? Why are they so important? I don't know who Lindsay Lohan is either, and I do not care at all about Tom Cruise's wife. Am I going to be called before a Senate committee and asked if I am a subversive? Maybe, but I just have no clue who Nick and Jessica are. If this is what it means to be no longer young , I t's not so bad. Next confession: I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are: Christmas trees. It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, "Merry Christmas" to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away. I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution, and I don't like it being shoved down my throat. Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship Nick and Jessica and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where Nick and Jessica came from and where the America we knew went to. In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking. Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this Happen?" (regarding Katrina) Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?" In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school . the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK. Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK. Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves. Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW." Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace. Are you laughing? Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us. Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.

Of course I don't mean this to cast dispertion on anyone...I just thought it was well....... u decide what u think of it.

juddy · 8 October 2006

nelly said:
I I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW." Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell.

The world has always been "going to hell", and religion has never been able to prevent it. In fact, historically, it has been the cause of much of the problems. And once again the major current crisis affecting the world have been caused by it.

Time to try a world without it.

kerosam · 8 October 2006

i guess if anyone is against any religion, he/she can surely find flaws in them e.g. the crusades and inquistion... but let's not forget that non-religious figures like Pol Pot, Stalin and Idi Amin did their fair share of destroying millions of people.

weird · 8 October 2006

Heres one which will put me with the looney fringe.

If one has seen miracles then this would certainly reinforce ones belief. Lets say the miracle was healing.

There is often no scientific explanation why someone with a terminal disease can suddenly be healed after a religious experience. And sceptics often attribute it to the mysterious power of the human mind.

But what if an animal was healed, and not a person ? What do we attribute that to.

For some people religion is not merely a belief but something very real and living.

2020hindsight · 8 October 2006

weird said:
. And sceptics often attribute it to the mysterious power of the human mind....But what if an animal was healed, and not a person ? What do we attribute that to.

Wierd I for one would love to know more details here. You have opened up a truly original theory which has never seen the light of day in my experience or in my mental wanders through this topic.

I'm one of the sceptice you mention - although I would say that the evidence is overwhelming that positive attitude can achieve wonders, whether or not gods help is involved. (hek - the depression thread has alluded to self help many times - and what's that if not positive thinking). The old quote "we can do whatever we believe we can do - with God's help" - should in my opinion be shortened by 3 words.

But an animal ? - yep I concede - that would be interesting I'll probably still remain sceptical ( to be honest). I mean there is such a thing as statistical scatter.

PS was it a chimpanzee, maybe lol By the way - a REAL sceptic would say you must have taught it to put its hands together so... But I wouldn't say that .
PPS as I mentioned in another thread... Do religious people gain strength from religion? Sure they do. It was proven by the Koreans in the 50's that the most religious were the hardest to brainwash - and by the way these were Muslims.
PPS a corny poem to finish with :-
since long ago all lions know, religion's heaven sent
religions prey upon our youth - but there's a catch for Lent
....
they put religion in their dens - while praying to St Michael
and so the lions preyed with them - and so completes the cycle.

happytrader · 8 October 2006

Distraction is a powerful tool.

While its easy to be distracted by the idea of religions being the bad guys, the reality is there are actually plenty of families out there preying on their own offspring. Breeding their own little cults.

Cheers
Happytrader

nelly · 8 October 2006

I for one being christian found this disturbing....very disturbing..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM&eurl=

check it out....
The 'spin' man puts on everything......

nelly · 8 October 2006

juddy said:
The world has always been "going to hell", and religion has never been able to prevent it. In fact, historically, it has been the cause of much of the problems. And once again the major current crisis affecting the world have been caused by it.

Time to try a world without it.

Hi juddy hows it going?
If you know anything about Muslims you'd know that their teaching does not advocate harming, terrorizing anyone. [not enough time I have to dash out] it's the radical ideology in all 'religion' that sees everything askew. Slanted for their own purpose.
I do not think religion is the cause of the trouble in the world as a whole today.

Will check in later....cheers

2020hindsight · 8 October 2006

nelly said:
I for one being christian found this disturbing....very disturbing.....

WHATT!! Good grief Charlie Brown !!!

Nelly for once I agree with you lol. (not the christian part - the very disturbing part)

teacher: "I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are over in ..um.. in Pakistan and in Israel and Palestine and all those different places (looks like she wouldn't know if the world was flat or round, let alone where Pakistan is - I personally wouldnt have picked Pakistan as an example of people laying down their lives):silly:
kid1: "you know a lot of people die for God and , and, they're not even afraid (smiles, looks contented and confident in this philosophy)
kid2: "You know its kinda like being trained to be warriors - but in a much funner way" (smiles)

Sheesh is this lady going to apologise when these kids "lay down their lives" as she asks? Fruitloop material.

Thank god for the funny side of USA? - Charlie Brown, Doonsbury. You'd have to assume they are starting to get swamped by the extremists however. (please tell me I'm wrong).
I took the family through some bible belt, not far from Grand Canyon as I recall - "and here is the 9 oclock news, they have just discovered proof of genesis 13/99" etc etc for ten minutes " - :nuts:
wowo Not sure I want to march beside these people - they'll lead us off a bloody cliff!!

PPSI remember the movie of Ghandi - almost dead after fasting for weeks - asks a Hindi follower beside him " I want you to adopt a Moslem boy " , reluctnat "ok", - "but" continues Ghandi " I want you to bring him up as a Muslim" - now there was an example of a beautiful extremist.
Maybe ask this lady :silly: if she'd be interested in following that example (instead of Osama)

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