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Religion IS crazy!

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If you believe in Adam and Eve, you probably still believe in Santa Claus and the fairies.
 
noco said:
If you believe in Adam and Eve, you probably still believe in Santa Claus and the fairies.
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Amazing. Again none of the specific points addressed. Yet a throw away line that has nothing to do with anything discussed is posted.

I'm glad that I can come on here and address specific point after specific point and post well reasoned arguments that follow a logic sequence. Even if we disagree at the end that is fine. Respect.

I respect the posting of many in this thread but nothing infuriates me more than some of the ass-clowns like the poster above who have nothing of worth to add.

I could come on and post "if you think something came from nothing and that a complex human evolved from a rock, you probably still believe in Santa Claus and the fairies". But what a stupid thing to post (other than to illustrate the point).
 
Pav, have you delved much into Western philosophy, especially post-Greek, and if so, what is your favourite logical "proof of God"? There's lots of them, and whilst they may not be deemed conclusive, and a lot of them have been shown to be logically unsound, I still enjoy reading them as they can still teach you how to create an argument from first principles. Whether you believe in God or not, philosophical thinking and reasoning has many ways of enhancing ones own thinking.
 

I've delved into a lot of Eastern and Western philosophies including atheistic. Things from Emerson to Friedrich Nietzsche. Other atheists such as Anthony Flew, Dawkins. A lot of YouTube hour spent watching. In terms of more eastern philosophy I've read Eckhart Tolle, Krishnamurti etc. Interesting to get varying perspectives.

I don't like the word proof. No one can prove anything. I can't prove this isn't a dream. Evidence however is the word. What does the evidence point to.

The way I see it is there are two sides. Either we were created by some god. Or we came from no god.
When we weight up the evidence:
- Can something come from nothing? (given that the universe is not eternal)
- Can life come from non-life?
For example, well... scientifically observable and repeatable) NO is the answer to both. Not difficult.
Any other answer is personal philosophy.

Then when you consider things like
- Complexity of life
- The precision of universal laws
etc. I ask which is more logical? Does it appear more logical that it was a creator or by random chance? The answer points to a creator.

When I delve into the theory of evolution which is put before me. I reject it as completely unscientific.
- There are zero examples of life from non-life
- Zero examples of something coming from nothing
- Zero examples of genetic information increasing (only mutations and duplication)
- Irreducible complexity of the cell, DNA etc.
- Genetic entropy
I cannot believe the theory of evolution purely on the lack of scientific evidence. It is blind faith to accept it based on this.

As for the logically unsound comment - it is merely your opinion or others that it is logically unsound, holding that opinion does not actually make it logically unsound.


Then Christianity is a whole new discussion. The evidence that leads to that is a topic in itself.


In summary - what we observe about the universe (listed above) is evidence which points to a creator. It flies in the face of a materialistic world view.

I am further comforted in my worldview when I look at the lack of substance behind the opposing one - evolution.
I think it's quite bizarre that micro evolution (natural selection, which is a fact), is the decreasing of genetic information. We observe this. It's scientific.
Yet the macro evolution of going from something lesser to something greater is actually CONTRARY to everything we observe and the complete opposite of natural selection.


When determining if it is more likely that there is a god or no god, I have to be scientific in my approach. I cannot go against scientific observation, no matter how convenient it is for me. I am not afraid to go wherever the answers point. And they point to a creator.
We can debate and go back and forward for the next 50 years, but one day we will all see this reality plain and clear.
 
tech/a said:
Why is it important to you?
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I want to know the truth.
I want to know why I am here.
I want to know where I came from.
I want to know where I am going.

Am I going to make up or believe any old story to give me peace of mind? - NO
Am I prepared to face whatever the truth is based on where it leads me whether it be a god or no god? - YES

Some will argue that it is impossible to know the answer to these questions.
Some will argue that many have debate this and this has never been resolved (however, truth doesn't require consensus)

How will I determine truth?
With all the scientific, historical, philosophical reasoning, existential evidence that is available to us.


I believe that the answers have been revealed to us by the person of Jesus Christ.
His life, death and resurrection make him ultimately worthy of my attentive ear.
I will listen to no man, church or any religious institution. Just the source, who is worthy of my trust.
I would never be arrogant enough to think that I can make up the answers.


We will all face death.
I do not advocate an insurance policy.
But I do advocate a thorough search for the truth. Not as a mortal comforter. But as the reality of what is to come....
 

Pav, there is NO evidence for the crucifixion, the resurrection or the claim that Jesus was God. NONE. There is general acceptance by biblical scholars that Jesus, the man, probably existed, but who exactly he was is not known. He may have been crucified, but lots of people were in those days. You are basing your claims on a few ancient texts, of dubious authenticity, written long after these events supposedly took place, and at a time when few people could read or write or had any education. How can you call this proof? And don't tell me I have done no research. I have read many books on the subject by reliable authors. Your so-called 'evidence' is nothing more than stories which grew as they were handed down orally, long before they were written down.

If you want to find a modern day equivalent, read about the cargo cults and the messianic figure called John Frum. Never heard of him? Look him up.

Evidence for evolution, on the other hand is massive, and mounting daily. I think you are monumentally arrogant to dismiss it in the face of such overwhelming support, especially as you clearly have no scientific knowledge. Have you ever read any books on evolution? If not, try reading some, and remove a bit of your embarrassing ignorance. "The Greatest Show on Earth" by Richard Dawkins (an eminent specialist on the subject) is written especially for the layman (me and you) and describes an experiment which documents evolution taking place. This is PROOF - empirical evidence, observed, verifiable. It cannot be refuted.
 
You're points on the resurrection and life of Christ are simply not true at all.
Unfortunately I am having to go off and pack my bags for my travel to India at this minute. But I would be open to addressing every one of those points upon my return.
Just as a brief outline. They were written in the lifetime of eye witnesses and two accounts by eye witnesses. Also the empty tomb. Also this was not a myth that developed over time, it has no time to. It was written in the lifetime of eye witnesses who would dispute any lies. Also the martyrdom of the apostles also verified by secular sources. They ran away after the death and thought Jesus had let them down. Then they see something and become fearless martyrs over something they KNEW 100% to either be true or a lie. You don't die for something you know 100% to be a lie, especially when in hiding days earlier.
There is a stack of other evidences.
Why do you think people pay thousands to take history courses at Uni? Because it is a reliable source of knowledge.
The gospels - 5,200 Greek manuscripts. Far far more sources than anything in antiquity (Caesar - 10 sources).


As for evolution.
There would be no point discussing it with someone holding such a dogmatic opinion on it as you do.
 
Pavillion, if you're still there....did Jesus walk on water?

Not trying to set you up. Just interested in your thoughts.

[edit]...although I do have a follow up comment, and that would be that there are "zero examples" of it. One might say it's "unscientific". Or...maybe there are some examples... I don't know.
 
Hopefully future discussion will look at what it is that each party believes constitutes evidence. I am guessing there are wildly divergent views on this.

Even so, the discussion will probably end with agreement by each that the other is stupid, blinkered, ignorant or dogmatic or some combination thereof.
 
I put this up as "evidence" that men aside from Jesus may have also had supernatural powers, including coming back to life. This is not a Buddhism versus Christianity post - I have no affiliations with either religion. Nor am I arguing the point of whether such powers are real because I have absolutely no idea. Obviously the idea seems highly improbable to us, but I certainly don't close my mind to it. Interesting reading anyway...

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http://www.vanamaliashram.org/sri-ishta-siddhi-subramanya.jpg

Buddhism teaches that after a practitioner achieves a certain degree of realization, spiritual power develops. A person at the level of an Arhat is said to possess six supernatural powers. Even so, it is understood that it is through Enlightenment that supernatural powers are manifested, rather than that supernatural powers enhance Enlightenment. Furthermore, it is acknowledged as well that supernatural powers are not attainable exclusively JUST by Buddhists and Buddhists only. It is possible for anyone who has deep religious and spiritual cultivation to develop some kind of ‘super-normal powers.

SIDDHI (Sanskrit: “accomplishment,” “attainment,” “perfection”). The term Siddhi is most often applied to a variety of spritual-related psychic capabilities or powers manifested by adherents in the Hindu and Buddhist realms. Through recognizing emptiness, clarity and openness of the mind, different qualities arise naturally, since they are part of mind. The Buddha, whose personal name Siddharta is based in the root-word and means “he whose aim is accomplished,” distinguishes between two types:

Normal Siddhis: all those forces of the conditioned world that transform elements.

Extraordinary Siddhis: the ability to open beings up for the liberating and enlightening truths; to lead to Realization.

Siddhi is typically defined as “a magical or spiritual power for the control of self, others and the forces of nature.” The Siddhis described by occultists and yogis are in actuality Supernormal Perceptual States available to all human beings. These are absolutely natural abilities that can be explained in highly rational terms. There is nothing mysterious or magical about the Siddhis.

http://api.ning.com/files/obEQaZfwX...yfyMZtHjd7kfC43fvYM4jjbs-ZEe/laxminarayan.jpg

1. PARKAYA PRAVESH

Parkaya Pravesh means entering one’s soul in the body of some other person. Through this knowledge even a dead body can be brought to life.

Just about three thousand years back, Shankaracharya had to take help of this knowledge in order to defeat Mandan Mishra in a spiritual debate. But as time passed this knowledge became extinct in the society and today only a very few yogis have full practical knowledge of this unique practice.

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2. HAADI VIDYA

This Vidya or knowledge has been mentioned in several ancient texts. On acquiring this Vidya a person neither feels hungry nor thirsty and he can remain without eating food or drinking water for several days at a stretch.

Several Yogis of the Himalayas, remain engrossed in deep Sadhanas for months and years without eating or drinking anything. When they do not eat or drink, they do not even have to empty their bowels. Thus they are able to perform long penance for years and their bodies also remain healthy and fit, even without food. The mysterious wandering Digambara monk Trailanga Swami was proficient in this Vidya. Although not always counted among Siddhis per se’ several instances have been cited regarding Trailanga Swami’s ability to spend hours under the water of the Ganges as he sought to teach men that human life need not depend on oxygen under the auspices of certain spiritual conditions and precautions (Pranayama). It has been reported there is a yogi that lives on the peak of the holy mountain Arunachala that has not had anything to eat since 1990. See also Nirodha.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_eWHV_XpBh...cuiE2YTQAm1T1UI6Cvu4Hy64ICgyB76Ft8waWS6PA.jpg

3. KAADI VIDYA

Just as one does not feel hungry or thirsty in Haadi Vidya similarly in Kaadi Vidya a person is not affected by change of seasons i.e. by summer, winter, rain etc. After accomplishing this Vidya a person shall not feel cold even if he sits in the snow laden mountains and shall not feel hot even if he sits in the fire. Thus a Sadhak can perform incessant penance without being affected by change of weather or seasons.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_OCu_uIvUa...Des/C_E4PQFfZPw/s1600/shiv_ardhnarishwar8.jpg

4. MADALASA VIDYA

On accomplishing this Vidya, a person becomes capable of increasing or decreasing the size of his body according to his wish. Lord Hanuman had miniaturised his body through this Vidya while entering the city of Lanka.

The average height of a human being is six feet. Through this Vidya a person can reduce the size of his body to the size of a mosquito and can even enlarge his body to a size of over hundred feet.

Anima Siddhi – The ability to decrease the size of one’s body and become smaller than the smallest particle. Through this siddhi one may enter into stone or change the density in one’s body, enabling one to pass through solid matter.

Mahima Siddhi – The ability to increase the size of one’s body, ultimately enveloping the universe.

http://www.palanitemples.com/images/siddhi1.gif

5. VAYU GAMAN SIDDHI

Through this Siddhi a person can become capable of flying in the skies and traveling from one place to another in just a few seconds. The Jain scriptures speak of Jain ascetics who could fly from place to place in a few seconds. Although there are several occasions of individuals flying reported in the Sutras of classical Buddhism and Zen, the Venerable Pindola Bharadvaja is probably the person most commonly cited. For the movement or cross-transference of items between the conventional plane or physical plane and other possible environments see Apportation Revisited.

Swami Vishuddhanandji (d. 1937)(sometimes spelled: Vishuddhananda, Vishudhanandaaka; aka: Gandha Baba, Perfume Saint), well-known for his supernatural powers and said to be an adept associated with the mysterious Gyanganj (Jnanaganj) hermitage somewhere in Tibet ”” a secret place of great masters ”” demonstrated this practice in Varanasi and proved that it is not a myth.

Although throughout his life the Enlightened sage Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi never exhibited the slightest interest in Siddhis, occult abilities, or psychic powers to outsiders, he had a fully conscious bilocation experience he rarely discussed wherein he was translocated from his ashram in a matter of minutes to a devotee many, many miles away. Arthur Osborne, Ramana’s biographer writes in Ramana Maharshi And The Path of Self-Knowledge (York Beach: Samuel Weiser, Inc., 1995, pages 96-97):

“One day, some years ago, I (Sri Ramana) was lying down and awake when I distinctly felt my body rise higher and higher. I could see the physical objects below growing smaller and smaller until they disappeared and all around me was a limitless expanse of dazzling light. After some time I felt the body slowly descend and the physical objects below began to appear. I was so fully aware of this incident that I finally concluded that it must be by such means that Sages using the powers of Siddhis travel over vast distances in a short time and Appear and Disappear in such a mysterious manner. While the body thus descended to the ground it occurred to me that I was at Tiruvottiyur though I had never seen the place before. I found myself on a highroad and walked along it. At some distance from the roadside was a temple of Ganapati and I entered it.”

A second equally interesting incident, cast in in a similar vein, and involving the Maharshi but a little too long to put here, can be found by going to: THE MEETING: An Untold Story of Sri Ramana

Laghima Siddhi – The ability to make one’s body lighter than air and fly at will. The perfection of this siddhi enables one to travel on the sun’s rays and enter into the sun planet.

LAGHIMA: TO HAVE NO WEIGHT. Laghima is the control of the effect of the earth’s attraction on the body by developing in each cell the opposite (centrifugal) tendency. Said to be implemented for the performed act of levitation, the Vayu Gaman Siddhi and the Laghima Siddhi. According to one of the eighteen main Puranas, the Markandeya Purana, Laghima means “to have an extreme speed.”

Successful cultivation of even the earliest stages of Samadhi can result in entering into the sublime meditative states of the Five Jhana Factors of which one is called Piti. Inturn Piti is broken down into five levels. One of those levels is called Ubbenga Piti, known as the transporting rapture.

Ubbenga Piti can lift the body off the floor and doing so still occurs to meditators of current times both in Thailand and elsewhere. A strong rapture of this kind, as manifested through the higher Jhana states, is able to lift the body and transport it (fly) over great distances through the air.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_W8nwd2BpPPQ/TMWL0x4e5gI/AAAAAAAAAHM/a897ITWeZ_8/s1600/123.jpg

6. KANAKDHARA SIDDHI

One can acquire immense and unlimited wealth through this Siddhi. It’s said that once Shankaracharya saw a very poor and destitute woman and with the help of the Kanakdhara Yantra he showered gold in her house. This Yantra is made on a silver plate and 36 squares are formed by drawing 7 lines each, horizontally and vertically. Then the Beej Mantra is written in these squares. Today only a very few people have full and authentic knowledge of this Siddhi.

7. PRAKYA SADHANA

Through this Sadhana a yogi can direct his disciple to take birth from the womb of a woman, who is childless or cannot bear children. Several Yogis have thus blessed infertile women with children. Swami Vishuddhanand had accomplished this Sadhana and had used it to bring happiness into the lives of several women. But today only two or three persons are accomplished in this Sadhana.

http://www.palanitemples.com/images/astama_siddhi.gif

8. SURYA VIGYAN

This Solar science is one of the most significant sciences of ancient India. This science has been known only to the Indian Yogis and using it, one substance can be transformed into another through the medium of sun rays.

Swami Vishudhananda had demonstrated the miracles of this science about 50-60 years ago, by transforming a paper into rose and a cotton ball into gold, otherwise it has become almost extinct.

http://www.palanitemples.com/images/siddhi.gif

9. MRIT SANJIVANI VIDYA

This Vidya was created by Adi Shankaracharya. Through it even a dead person can be brought back to life. This practice may seem to be a myth but it had been used by Guru Gorakhnath several times. Today only a few persons have practical knowledge of this Vidya.

Prapti Siddhi – The ability to manifest any object one desires within one’s hand. This siddhi removes the limitations of space which seperate two objects from each other. It is said one will even be able to touch the moon with one’s finger [i.e. the limitation of distance is removed].

Prakamya Siddhi – The ability to attain anything one desires.

I****a Siddhi – The ability to control the sub-potencies of the laws of nature. This enables one to control various energies and seemingly defy the laws of nature. The Swami Ramalinga, more popularly known as Vallalar is recorded to have moved a whole contingent of followers from the wrath of a terrible storm to the safe harbor of a distant shrine in an instant. See also la Catalina whose abilities allowed her, among other things, to turn into a wisp of smoke as though a blackened silhouette and sail through the air only to dissipate into the night sky.

Va****a Siddhi – The ability to bring others under one’s control.

Kamavasayita Siddhi – The ability to attain anything anywhere. This is the highest of the eight and contains most of the abilities of the other perfections.

For further exploration into these topics, I refer you to The Sacred Books of the East Volume Xl ~ Full Book

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I was once married to a Catholic turned Jewhova Witness...I am now agnostic... nuff said.
 

Pav has already used the words 'insanity' and 'insane' in reference to those whose views are different to his.

Meanwhile, although he keeps pushing the line that something can't come from nothing (which I happen to agree with), he apparently thinks that the god he believes in came from nothing.
Either that, or like many people who can't explain how this god was created, he'll tell us that god 'always was'.
 
Well I'm a little different to PAV

I don't need to know anything.
 
GB – For once I’ve actually read one of your long posts in its entirety.

These wild beliefs are nonsense, and just like the power of prayer, if you asked for a demonstration to support them, you’d get nothing.

I acknowledge that you’re not presenting these views as fact, but rather have posted them for the interest of the forum.

The Buddhists have some pretty far out beliefs – a relative whose converted to Buddhism once showed me a booklet they put out about the nine (or is it ten) different hells that await sinners after we depart this life.
It was so crazy that I formed the view that you’d just about have to be off your head to believe it. Do a Google search on it if you’re interested.
 
bunyip said:
... he apparently thinks that the god he believes in came from nothing.
Either that, or like many people who can't explain how this god was created, he'll tell us that god 'always was'.
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You say it so much better than me.
 
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