QANTAS Grounds all Flights

[bellenuit]

What stopped them getting people off the planes ?

Yesterday's thunderstorms, while unusual for perth, are standard fare in the tropics.

The newspapers didn't specifically say. I can only surmise many planes were waiting for docking bays to become available, others may not have been able to approach the bay if the guy that directs them the last few metres wasn't allowed on the tarmac. Apparently some were kept on the planes for up to 7 hours. That is just unacceptable. Here is a link to the story on the West Australian.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/...antas-passengers-fume-as-storm-creates-chaos/

 

[sptrawler]

The baggage handlers and staff that move the telescopic walkway, apparently have a clause in their award, that keeps them indoors when there is an electrical storm.

 

[drsmith]

The baggage handlers and staff that move the telescopic walkway, apparently have a clause in their award, that keeps them indoors when there is an electrical storm.

So, the war continues.

 

[joea]

Hi.
About 4 years ago I was picking up a passenger in Cairns and there was an electrical storm, so I waited 40 minutes for the plane to unload.
So it goes back a while.
joea

 

[sptrawler]

Yes drsmith, how they think this sort of thing helps their case is beyond me.
All it does is give Joyce more ammunition for a complete overhaul of the award.
Like I've sugested before, it is more likely the baggage handlers are being set up to take a big fall. Then the government can turn around and say FWA is working and is prepared to take a hard line.IMO
Nothing worse than being cannon fodder. Bit sad really in my opinion.

 

[sptrawler]

Hi.
About 4 years ago I was picking up a passenger in Cairns and there was an electrical storm, so I waited 40 minutes for the plane to unload.
So it goes back a while.
joea

Thats exactly right joea and Joyce will be saying these work practices are causing Qantas to become uncompetitive. It isn't going to end well. Been there done that.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

I miss TAA and hanging over the barrier at Cairns, lighting a doorie, watching a true love disembark from a Fokker.

gg

 

[joea]

I miss TAA and hanging over the barrier at Cairns, lighting a doorie, watching a true love disembark from a Fokker.

gg

Your correct. I have been on them, great flight. Probably better waiting for true love.
Went on a flight once and was sitting next to a woman going to a funeral with a wreath on her lap and was "s##t scared of flying. She asked me if she could hold my hand and I said ok.
Made one mistake because we were flying low, told her her we did not have far to fall.
She screeched and the hostess came to calm her down.
Most entertaining flight I ever had. And did not even have a movie to watch.
Life goes on.
joea

 

[Eager]

I don't expect anyone to work on the tarmac when there is an electrical storm overhead, but 5kms away is a long way and allows ample time to clear the tarmac. The newspaper didn't say, but it is also possible that the 5km exclusion even applies to storms that are passing within 5kms but not heading towards the airport.

The line has to be drawn somewhere.

A storm 5km away will probably allow enough time to disembark all the passengers and get their luggage into the terminal.

A storm 3 or 4km away might not. I will leave it up to you to tell me which passengers will have to stay on board!

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Surely yesterday's events at Perth airport are a prime example of the issues facing QANTAS.

I flew in from Bangkok at about 3:30pm on Thai Airways, went through immigration and customs in no time and was out front ready to be picked up at 4pm. The only thing unusual was the large crowd in the baggage area, not what I expected mid Tuesday afternoon.

Later I learned that due to electrical storms over and near Perth, thousands of QANTAS passengers were severely delayed, some waiting in planes for many hours, others having to catch connecting flights on non-QANTAS airlines without their luggage and many others missing connecting flights completely.

Its seems the award that the Baggage Handlers and Engineers have with QANTAS allows them to not work on the tarmac when there is thunderstorm activity within 5km of the airport.

In the midst of the QANTAS chaos, other airlines, including domestic competitors such as Virgin, were able to fly in and out mostly unaffected. This whole affair will be very costly to QANTAS if they have to reimburse passengers for missed connecting flights etc and for baggage forwarding.

I don't expect anyone to work on the tarmac when there is an electrical storm overhead, but 5kms away is a long way and allows ample time to clear the tarmac. The newspaper didn't say, but it is also possible that the 5km exclusion even applies to storms that are passing within 5kms but not heading towards the airport.

It is all getting ridiculous. Perhaps a ration of rum for the Qantas handlers might assist. This is not a good image in the Industrial disputes in FWA.

I myself have been hit my lightning and survived.

gg

 

[sptrawler]

It is all getting ridiculous. Perhaps a ration of rum for the Qantas handlers might assist. This is not a good image in the Industrial disputes in FWA.

I myself have been hit my lightning and survived.

gg

You shouldn't have been holding the wine cask, above your head, to get the last drop out.

 

[bellenuit]

The line has to be drawn somewhere.

A storm 5km away will probably allow enough time to disembark all the passengers and get their luggage into the terminal.

A storm 3 or 4km away might not. I will leave it up to you to tell me which passengers will have to stay on board!

Well since the captain is in charge of his/her ship, shouldn't it be left up to the discretion of the captain whether it is safe to disembark? The captain decides on all other issues relating to the flight, some of greater import such as whether it is safe to fly in the conditions.

imposing a 5km hard and fast rule when ground conditions may suggest there is no safety issue is too stringent. Remember this 5km rule applied only to QANTAS staff. All other airlines were able to do ground operations during the gaps in the storm when they deemed it safe. Even the QANTAS pilots expressed bemusement at the state of affairs.

 

[Boggo]

Aviation and all things associated seem to be one of those industries where the number of experts almost equals the number of customers. In most cases public opinion (a little bit of knowledge) and reality are poles apart.

The procedures (mandated, especially in the case of thunderstorms) that apply to all of of Australia's larger airports both conform to ICAO standards and in some cases set the standard.

The basic concept is that safety procedures are never tested, they are ahead of any potential risk circumstance.

Here is an extract from from one document that may provide a very minor insight to the reality that Joe Public doesn't need to know about. The onus is on each airline to have in place a standard set of procedures that are approved and must be followed.

Thunderstorms and the associated weather have a range of impacts on operations at airports that include disruption to air traffic and to ground operations. Lightning in particular presents a hazard to ground staff and various ground operations will cease while thunderstorms and associated lightning are in the area.
The disruption to ground operations compounds the disruption to air traffic when there are thunderstorms in the terminal area.
The flow-on disruption can last for many hours and extend around the country as aircraft cannot be unloaded and refuelled, they cannot leave parking bays and arriving aircraft may have no place to park. The pressure to maintain operations at airports is great and there has been a need for better real time information about thunderstorms and associated lightning in the terminal area that enables better strategic and tactical planning of ground operations by the airlines without compromising safety requirements.
To satisfy this requirement an Automated Thunderstorm Alert Service (ATSAS) has been developed by the Bureau of Meteorology and implemented at the major airports around the country.
Systems that support the ATSAS integrate radar information and lightning data and automatically generate end-user graphical and text products that show the location and movement of thunderstorm cells and the presence of lightning near the airport. The products are updated frequently and can be more easily understood by airline personnel.
The airlines in conjunction with airport authorities have developed response procedures that enable them to better manage the disruption and minimize impacts.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Provide proof mate.

This is bureaucratic gobbledygook.

Provide Proof.

Most folk are in more danger of dying on their way to the airport than on the flight.

You are conflating a possible, minuscule threat on boarding a flight, in to something it is not.

gg

 

[Boggo]

Most folk are in more danger of dying on their way to the airport than on the flight.

You've answered your own question there gg, who is in charge on the way to the airport

You are conflating a possible, minuscule threat on boarding a flight, in to something it is not.

I dont write em, I just read em

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

You've answered your own question there gg, who is in charge on the way to the airport


I dont write em, I just read em

See my previous post mate.

No proof.

Reading is not an excuse.

gg

 

[Boggo]

See my previous post mate.

No proof.

Reading is not an excuse.

gg

OK, what about having to comply with ?

The airlines have developed joint working arrangements for coordinating ramp shut-downs which will be initiated by operational staff within the airlines based on the ATSAS products.
The shutdown will occur when there is a risk of CG lightning within 5 NM of the airport. The thresholds for initiating the shutdown are fairly conservative and these are still being refined.
The ATSAS is now operational at Cairns, Brisbane, Coolangatta, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth and Darwin airports.

 

[sptrawler]

OK, what about having to comply with ?

The airlines have developed joint working arrangements for coordinating ramp shut-downs which will be initiated by operational staff within the airlines based on the ATSAS products.
The shutdown will occur when there is a risk of CG lightning within 5 NM of the airport. The thresholds for initiating the shutdown are fairly conservative and these are still being refined.
The ATSAS is now operational at Cairns, Brisbane, Coolangatta, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth and Darwin airports.

By the way why aren't the other airlines complying with this requirement?
Or is it an instruction only enforced on Qantas?
If it is a requirement of all airlines will there be an investigation as to why Qantas staff was the only one following correct protocol?
Is this protocol is only a requirement for Qantas, is it because of the award conditions?
Well Boggo there's a couple of questions that should clear up the issues for those not involved in the airline industry.

 

[Boggo]

By the way why aren't the other airlines complying with this requirement?
Or is it an instruction only enforced on Qantas?

Some airlines seem to add their own buffer to the minimum requirements and I am assuming that is what QF does.
QF do taxy their aircraft with the wing de-ice lights on to illiminate the wings both day and night, an example of individual company procedures that they deem appropriate to their operation for some reason but other airlines don't think necessary.

 

[sptrawler]

Some airlines seem to add their own buffer to the minimum requirements and I am assuming that is what QF does.
QF do taxy their aircraft with the wing de-ice lights on to illiminate the wings both day and night, an example of individual company procedures that they deem appropriate to their operation for some reason but other airlines don't think necessary.

Yes that would have worked well at Perth, WE HAVE OUR DE-ICING LIGHTS ON.
What about answering the questions posed.