QANTAS Grounds all Flights

[sptrawler]

From the article that DB008 provided a link to:

Qantas 'did not terminate talks'

Qantas’s chief executive, Alan Joyce, said his preferred option had been to resolve the dispute with the pilots’ union and the TWU through negotiations but it was ‘‘now time to let Fair Work Australia bring the matter to a close’’.

Mr Joyce said Qantas did not terminate the negotiations but both sides had concluded that an agreement could not be reached.

Qantas had made a ‘‘generous offer’’ to the TWU, which included reasonable increases in pay and conditions, and protecting the jobs of existing employees, he said.

He also said that the federal government had indicated it would vigorously defend the decision by Fair Work to terminate the industrial action three weeks ago, in the event that the pilots’ union and the TWU purused legal action.

‘‘We are right behind the government on this,’’ he said.


So, according to Joyce, Qantas and the gov't are in alignment.

Where does that leave the opinions of the majority of ASF members then?

Don't worry the government is in damage control with this one!!!!!!
The last thing they want is Joyce taking the FWA to the high court.
With regard the government backing their union mates, it's more like"please leave a message we are not available at this time" IMO

 

[DB008]

There is a news.com.au "Idiots Guide" trying to explain some of the workings of the dispute here

 

[sptrawler]

This really does have the potential to blow up in the governments face.

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel...oliday-flight-disruptions-20111122-1nsze.html

It may highlight exactly what Joyce was complaining about with FWA just being a union puppet show.
No matter what happens from here it won't look good for Gillard, it is becoming loose/ loose.

 

[joea]

Sheldon was truely "dusted by Joyce in the Senate sideshow.
His body language showed that he is a sore loser. His comments since have confirmed it!

Qantas carry's the flag for Australian travel, and any significant stuff up by Gillard will be reflected in the polls.
But is she using, or intend to use the Qantas fiasco as a political step up in the polls?
That's the million dollar question.
My money is on a yes.
Carbon Tax in, Mining tax in, resolve the Qantas problem and then solve the people smugglers. No problem!!
The theme will be " you can't catch me Tony".
joea

 

[Logique]

Cheap political points on offer here for the PM if she smacks down the TWU, who are out of control and need to be reined in. Ever quick with a scare campaign against Workchoices, but not so happy when under their own system, compulsory arbitration is imposed on them.

Fascinating that the TWU actually believe they'll get any joy out of the top 5,000 Qantas shareholders at a shareholder meeting.

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel...oliday-flight-disruptions-20111122-1nsze.html
"..The unions are furious the dispute has gone to compulsory arbitration. Mr Sheldon said yesterday the union would decide ''later this week whether we appeal the court decision from three weeks ago''.

He said unions would need to have Fair Work's termination ruling overturned in the Federal Court before they could seek further protected action.

The Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union, which is a Qantas shareholder, also expects the airline to hand over its share register tomorrow. The union plans to contact the airline's top 5000 shareholders in an attempt to muster the 100 or more required to call an extraordinary meeting.."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel...disruptions-20111122-1nsze.html#ixzz1eTPC01G1

 

[Whiskers]

Cheap political points on offer here for the PM if she smacks down the TWU, who are out of control and need to be reined in. Ever quick with a scare campaign against Workchoices, but not so happy when under their own system, compulsory arbitration is imposed on them.

Fascinating that the TWU actually believe they'll get any joy out of the top 5,000 Qantas shareholders at a shareholder meeting.

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel...oliday-flight-disruptions-20111122-1nsze.html
"..The unions are furious the dispute has gone to compulsory arbitration. Mr Sheldon said yesterday the union would decide ''later this week whether we appeal the court decision from three weeks ago''.

He said unions would need to have Fair Work's termination ruling overturned in the Federal Court before they could seek further protected action.

The Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union, which is a Qantas shareholder, also expects the airline to hand over its share register tomorrow. The union plans to contact the airline's top 5000 shareholders in an attempt to muster the 100 or more required to call an extraordinary meeting.."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel...disruptions-20111122-1nsze.html#ixzz1eTPC01G1

Yep, the games are just getting warmed up.

I mentioned at the outset that it was likely Joyce's action would likely get the whole trades hall off side... but the CFMEU action looks like being a bit smarter tactic than I gave them credit for. Whether it is successful or not is another thing.

But, on what is likely successful, I reckon the pilots might have a good shot at appealing the FWA ruling against them. Their action doesn't seem to fall into the category of s424. I think FWA might have erred in bundling them all together. The TWU probably don't have a chance and the engineers probably only a slim shot.

FAIR WORK ACT 2009 - SECT 424

FWA must suspend or terminate protected industrial action--endangering life etc.
Suspension or termination of protected industrialaction

(1) FWA must make an order suspending or terminating protected industrial action for a proposed enterprise agreement that:

(a) is being engaged in; or
​

(b) is threatened, impending or probable;
​

if FWA is satisfied that the protected industrial action has threatened, is threatening, or would threaten:

(c) to endanger the life, the personal safety or health, or the welfare, of the population or of part of it; or

(d) to cause significant damage to the Australian economy or an important part of it.
​

 

[nulla nulla]

Is the share price dropping along with the general market jitters over the past few days or is the market less confident of the FWA outcome for Qantas?

 

[Whiskers]

Is the share price dropping along with the general market jitters over the past few days or is the market less confident of the FWA outcome for Qantas?

I say just moving with the market atm.

I would elaborate a bit further on my earlier assessment of the merits of the unions successfully appealing the FWA decision. If the Federal Court (which by the way is not nearly as influenced by the gov as FWA is)... decides that the unions can not be held responsible for the retaliation of Qantas against protected industrial action that was in itself not causing or threatening;

(c) to endanger the life, the personal safety or health, or the welfare, of the population or of part of it; or

(d) to cause significant damage to the Australian economy or an important part of
it.
​

but, that it was the retaliation by Qantas that not only threatened, but caused;

(c) to endanger the life, the personal safety or health, or the welfare, of the population or of part of it; or

(d) to cause significant damage to the Australian economy or an important part of it.

​

By locking out key operational staff that were essential for the safe operation of the planes, which led to the inability of the fleet to fly safely and Joyce grounding the fleet.

The law is a bit of a funny animal and Judges (especially on appeal) will pay much closer attention to the precicse cause and effect and the letter of the law.

I suspect Gillard who btw is a lawyer probably knows there is a reasonable chance of an appeal winning, hence their urging the unions to let the(ir) umpires decision stand and not take further legal action.

That's a bit of hypocrisy from a lawyer and our prime minister to try to deny people their legal right to appeal/contest any administrative or lower court decision. Surely if the law is not framed the way the gov want's it, isn't it better to have it decided sooner rather than burying everyone's head in the sand until later!?

 

[Smurf1976]

Put youself in the shoes of the average person who knows little about the issues and who just wants to fly from A to B sometime in January.

Would you book with Qantas as your first choice? Or would you check to see if another airline also flies that route and has seats available?

As long as this dispute remains in the news it's going to hurt Qantas at least in the short term no matter what the eventual outcome.

 

[Boggo]

Put youself in the shoes of the average person who knows little about the issues and who just wants to fly from A to B sometime in January.

Sounds like the average person is waking up to the spin from the QF department of spin.
How does it go, you can fool some of the people some of the time etc etc...

http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/...mpaign-backfires/story-e6frfq80-1226202445747

 

[sptrawler]

I can't understand why Joyce doesn't want to sit there and answer to Doug Cameron the ex union delegate, now labor royalty.LOL LOL LOL

http://www.smh.com.au/business/fly-by-joyce--misses-second-inquiry-grilling-20111123-1numa.html

It must be hard to sit there with a straight face, when Doug is telling you that your unreasonable

 

[nulla nulla]

Sounds like the average person is waking up to the spin from the QF department of spin.
How does it go, you can fool some of the people some of the time etc etc...

http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/...mpaign-backfires/story-e6frfq80-1226202445747

Not sure, is it...

You can fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time....?

Sounds like Joyce is looking for a carreer change to politics.

 

[Boggo]

I can't understand why Joyce doesn't want to sit there and answer to Doug Cameron the ex union delegate, now labor royalty.LOL LOL LOL

http://www.smh.com.au/business/fly-by-joyce--misses-second-inquiry-grilling-20111123-1numa.html

It must be hard to sit there with a straight face, when Doug is telling you that your unreasonable

At the moment we have Cameron (Scottish) with his boss Julia (Welsh) going to sort out Joyce (Irish).
I think I may have just found a use for all those used boats that are sitting around Christmas Island !

Did you hear the one about the Irishman, the Scotsman... hahaha :aus: :jerry

 

[sptrawler]

Don't worry the government is in damage control with this one!!!!!!
The last thing they want is Joyce taking the FWA to the high court.
With regard the government backing their union mates, it's more like"please leave a message we are not available at this time" IMO

Well it sounds like someone has taken Sheldon into a back room and read him his horoscope.

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel...rs-four-years-strike-free-20111124-1nwdt.html

I would say the T.W.U have sealed the fate of their members, another sad day for ill advised members. IMO. Been there, done that, have the T shirt.

 

[sptrawler]

Didn't someone on this thread say that Qantas is the national carrier therefore it gets preferential government treatment.
Well why, if that is true, did N.B.N sign up with Virgin as its prefered carrier.
Sounds as though a bit of bullsheeet is been thrown around. No wonder this has gone quiet we probably won't hear much about the outcome of FWA arbitration. In my opinion it will be ugly.

 

[Boggo]

Well why, if that is true, did N.B.N sign up with Virgin as its prefered carrier.

Maybe they wanted to get there on time

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...s-check-ins-down/story-e6freon6-1226209788009

 

[sptrawler]

Hope the Qantas workers watched lateline business the other night. They were read their horroscope, American Airlines share price $41 down to 0.47c they are having the same competition problems.
Even Dick Smith was saying Qantas can't compete with overseas carriers.
Best the Unions get in touch with Julia, she will look after you.LOL,LOL cough,LOL,LOL

 

[bellenuit]

Surely yesterday's events at Perth airport are a prime example of the issues facing QANTAS.

I flew in from Bangkok at about 3:30pm on Thai Airways, went through immigration and customs in no time and was out front ready to be picked up at 4pm. The only thing unusual was the large crowd in the baggage area, not what I expected mid Tuesday afternoon.

Later I learned that due to electrical storms over and near Perth, thousands of QANTAS passengers were severely delayed, some waiting in planes for many hours, others having to catch connecting flights on non-QANTAS airlines without their luggage and many others missing connecting flights completely.

Its seems the award that the Baggage Handlers and Engineers have with QANTAS allows them to not work on the tarmac when there is thunderstorm activity within 5km of the airport.

In the midst of the QANTAS chaos, other airlines, including domestic competitors such as Virgin, were able to fly in and out mostly unaffected. This whole affair will be very costly to QANTAS if they have to reimburse passengers for missed connecting flights etc and for baggage forwarding.

I don't expect anyone to work on the tarmac when there is an electrical storm overhead, but 5kms away is a long way and allows ample time to clear the tarmac. The newspaper didn't say, but it is also possible that the 5km exclusion even applies to storms that are passing within 5kms but not heading towards the airport.

 

[drsmith]

Surely yesterday's events at Perth airport are a prime example of the issues facing QANTAS.

What stopped them getting people off the planes ?

Yesterday's thunderstorms, while unusual for perth, are standard fare in the tropics.

 

[Logique]

At the moment we have Cameron (Scottish) with his boss Julia (Welsh) going to sort out Joyce (Irish).

And don't forget Sen Chris Evans, ALP Senate Leader, born in England, and ALP Sen S Conroy ditto.

A backload for the boats (Joyce excepted).