Prop Shops in Australia

[spibok]

http://www.gfin.com.au/

this threads been quiet for a bit but thought i would throw this out there. Anyone know anything about them?

 

[MeekTrader]

No but I don't know if the website offers alot of confidence...

 

[Naked shorts]

No but I don't know if the website offers alot of confidence...

agreeed

 

[Novice1]

Hi,

Just wanted to see if anyone was interested in actually joining a prop trading firm in Melbourne?

Please let me know so we can see what the real interest is.

As you may be aware that most prop desks are in Sydney, lets see if there is enough interest in Melbourne?

Thanks

 

[RobinHood]

for a a uni student interested in trafigura , vitol etc (trading physicals)

transfer to chemical engineering or continue maths/stats ... ? can I learn all I need about the physicals by starting from the bottom with just a maths degree?

...if you read this m i wanted to send you an update!

 

[Trembling Hand]

Two trainee jobs on offer for prop shops in Sydney, Gold coast and Singers,

http://www.seek.com.au/job/22332739?cid



http://www.seek.com.au/job/22332296?

 

[Trembling Hand]

I have moved the discussion from SKC's thread here
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24844

I have found the way to go. I now have ZERO money in, yet leveraged up 100 times. Prop trading. OPM

Heaven = no risk + more gain.

Good for you TH but why would anybody provide that incentive package? Do they have other mechanisms in place for controlling the risks you take with their money?

Risk control is their business. Why they provide it? Because they get a ride on the back of very profitable traders while cutting duds early. Think about it this way; 1 good trader who works up to swinging a good size will pay for 20 duds that start with the minimum size and get cut early. They trade traders like traders trade the market.

Do they control the risk you take other than through the size of capital allocated. i.e a micro level of risk control over what you do day to day?

Once you’ve earned a sizable capital allocation – what’s to stop you upping your risk profile – which is the logical thing to do when there is no downside – I suppose you would be turfed out on your ear if you blew up – but they would still have a major loss and you would still have your share of all those earlier risks that went your way. (sounds strangely familiar)

The incentive structure doesn’t make sense to me – but finding the best traders to trade the capital does.

Do you personally trade any different because you have no risk? or is the risk of losing access to the their capital the risk? or is the incentive structure not an issue because they micro control the risk you take?

Will come back later today. Bit busy at the mo. :bricks1:

 

[Trembling Hand]

Do they control the risk you take other than through the size of capital allocated. i.e a micro level of risk control over what you do day to day?

Nope. They don't even know how I make my decisions. What they control is my MAX position size and what markets I trade. For the moment its only day trading. No positions carried over although they do let some traders do it with a record.

Once you’ve earned a sizable capital allocation – what’s to stop you upping your risk profile – which is the logical thing to do when there is no downside – I suppose you would be turfed out on your ear if you blew up – but they would still have a major loss and you would still have your share of all those earlier risks that went your way. (sounds strangely familiar)

You cannot do too much damage they have 24 hr risk controllers checking your progress. I reckon if you're the type to trade like a dick and go off tilt and blow your account up in a day you're probably not going to get the record to get the gig in the first place.

The incentive structure doesn’t make sense to me – but finding the best traders to trade the capital does.

It does when they themselves have very little risk exposure to new traders compared to experienced ones who make an annual wage in a day.

Do you personally trade any different because you have no risk? or is the risk of losing access to the their capital the risk? or is the incentive structure not an issue because they micro control the risk you take?

I'm trading crap at the moment just because of the performance pressure of extra size. I'm actually more risk adverse! Which is annoying me!

 

[tech/a]

Nope. They don't even know how I make my decisions. What they control is my MAX position size and what markets I trade. For the moment its only day trading. No positions carried over although they do let some traders do it with a record.

You cannot do too much damage they have 24 hr risk controllers checking your progress. I reckon if you're the type to trade like a dick and go off tilt and blow your account up in a day you're probably not going to get the record to get the gig in the first place.

It does when they themselves have very little risk exposure to new traders compared to experienced ones who make an annual wage in a day.

I'm trading crap at the moment just because of the performance pressure of extra size. I'm actually more risk adverse! Which is annoying me!

T/H what are the benifits ( other than no risk ) of you trading for someone else.

I remember you saying that finding $50k to bail out a mate didnt take that long.
So with your skill and even if you traded smaller size and over shorter periods
wouldnt it be better just to be self employed?

 

[Gringotts Bank]

TH, working for yourself, what would be your % annual return on total capital over the last few years?

 

[CanOz]

T/H what are the benifits ( other than no risk ) of you trading for someone else.

I remember you saying that finding $50k to bail out a mate didnt take that long.
So with your skill and even if you traded smaller size and over shorter periods
wouldnt it be better just to be self employed?

If that was the case then why would Prop Shops even exist?

Personally i think its better to play golf with people better than you, it holds you accountable and the competitiveness sharpens the focus and hones the skills.

IMO, this would be similar, and why many would go with the shops, you have got to be accountable to someone other than yourself for this too. Plus, whether or not you are in their office or not, you are still competing against their traders for performance stats.

CanOz

 

[Trembling Hand]

T/H what are the benifits ( other than no risk ) of you trading for someone else.

I remember you saying that finding $50k to bail out a mate didnt take that long.
So with your skill and even if you traded smaller size and over shorter periods
wouldnt it be better just to be self employed?

Nope. I get to size up to levels that are just not possible when trading your own account. The chance to be a real player :grinsking

The other thing is there is no account drag from tax, draw down, and living expenses etc. Hugely underestimated by dreamers who one day hope to trade fulltime.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

TH, working for yourself, what would be your % annual return on total capital over the last few years?

Come on!! You can't tell everyone how brilliant a trader you are and then not divulge this! There are others who might also want to try the prop shop experience.

 

[Trembling Hand]

Come on!! You can't tell everyone how brilliant a trader you are and then not divulge this! There are others who might also want to try the prop shop experience.

Whats it to do with prop shops? They couldn't give a rats **** about % return.

If you go to a prop shop and quote % return they'll know you're a dreamer.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Whats it to do with prop shops? They couldn't give a rats **** about % return.

If you go to a prop shop and quote % return they'll know your a dreamer.

lol

 

[craft]

Nope. They don't even know how I make my decisions. What they control is my MAX position size and what markets I trade. For the moment its only day trading. No positions carried over although they do let some traders do it with a record.

You cannot do too much damage they have 24 hr risk controllers checking your progress. I reckon if you're the type to trade like a dick and go off tilt and blow your account up in a day you're probably not going to get the record to get the gig in the first place.

It does when they themselves have very little risk exposure to new traders compared to experienced ones who make an annual wage in a day.

I'm trading crap at the moment just because of the performance pressure of extra size. I'm actually more risk adverse! Which is annoying me!

If it was my equity being traded – it would be the experienced ones who had just about had enough and knew how to utilise a no downside all upside risk incentive that I would worry about.

I’ve heard of some dodgy prop shops that are more about selling training/software etc but I would think if you can sort the wheat from the chaff and find the good ones and get a zero risk/profit share setup then why wouldn’t you try your hand if that is the sort of trading you are good at?

Thanks for sharing – fascinating.

 

[Trembling Hand]

lol

Thus proving my point, retail thinks % return is the metric. Prop will not.

 

[skc]

If it was my equity being traded – it would be the experienced ones who had just about had enough and knew how to utilise a no downside all upside risk incentive that I would worry about.

I’ve heard of some dodgy prop shops that are more about selling training/software etc but I would think if you can sort the wheat from the chaff and find the good ones and get a zero risk/profit share setup then why wouldn’t you try your hand if that is the sort of trading you are good at?

Thanks for sharing – fascinating.

The skewed nature of the reward/risk is not dis-similar to problems in investment banks, originator of sub-prime loans, real estate agents, corporate CEOs with their option packages etc etc.

In fact - self funded traders, business owners and professional gamblers are the only ones whose incentives are directly linked to risk.

 

[craft]

The skewed nature of the reward/risk is not dis-similar to problems in investment banks, originator of sub-prime loans, real estate agents, corporate CEOs with their option packages etc etc.

Tell me about it - where's the soap box. Maybe I'm just pissed because my reward is linked to risk.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Thus proving my point, retail thinks % return is the metric. Prop will not.

Trembler you're cracking me up today!

Prop shop will look at draw downs, frequency of trades, Sharpe, good money management, etc etc. And then if you have that under control, what they really want to know is can you make them money, which is what % return is, yep?