Problems selling on Open via Comsec/Iress

Hi All
I trade a system that requires to trade at open and close prices. I trade thru Comsec using their Iress platform. I often need to sell on open. I often find when i place an order below (but NOT significantly below) the indicative match open price (watching in real time, just before the market opens), that my order does not get placed into the market, instead (via 'manage orders, on the comsec website) i can see it is in "Processing" status (on the comsec website) - this, i am told by comsec, is because it is too far below the previous closing price ( i guess following ASX 'orderly market' rules). This does not take into account the match (indicative opening) price and there are already sell orders in at the price i am entering my order at.
The "Processing" status of the order means it is routed for Manual checking by a comsec team member, which can take several minutes which means i miss the open, by the time the order is executed, which can cost me $ (occassionaly sometimes it goes in my favour also). What is annoying is that the order in "Processing" cannot be cancelled or amended so i am left in limbo awaiting comsec to execute the order - not good!

On a day when the U.S. market is down significantly and the market is going to open substantially open this can really cost $$

Anyone else experiencing this issue? Does it happen with other brokers (using Iress)?

Cheers
Marty

Same with Westpac.
Nothing to do with Iress really.
It's all about market rules and what the brokers have coded in.

Have experienced the same as you, pita.

I guess the way around it is conditional stepped orders (more order $ cost though?) or sell/ buy "at market" immediately apon open.
Good luck.

Hi mate, re"conditional stepped orders" can you expand on how these work in relation to selling on open? cheers

No, I can't, thus the I guess bit!
I'm no expert on the subject.

There must be a way to do it within asx trade rules is more the point, as it happens every day.

I just use at market option.

Hopefully someone with experience in this area will provide a solution?

what is spoofing?
" Spoofing is a disruptive algorithmic trading activity employed by traders to outpace other market participants and to manipulate markets. Spoofers feign interest in trading futures, stocks and other products in financial markets creating an illusion of the demand and supply of the traded asset. "

what is it that would disrupt "value" at the open ?

Timing of the thread is quite uncanny.
I tested something this morning before open. A dummy order.



Result of attempted order



Market depth then and now



It stands to reason, if you can't buy the only parcel visible, why doesn't the ASX purge the order?

Isnt it also too far from last traded price?

It's all dark arts, but what we need to understand, it's all controlled by the market makers, coded algos, spoofers etc
Way above my pay grade and understanding...?

The orderly market rule is an ASX rule. However it is up to the individual brokers to decide their interpretation of trades that will contravene the rule. They each have their own algorithims for sending an order for manual review. They also have their own interpretations of the ASX orderly market rule to decide which orders should be placed and which rejected from the manual review.

Over the years I have found Commsec to be one of the more flexible in accepting orders away from the last trade price. Commsec actually take the indicative opening price (IOP) into consideration.

Although, I have found the further you move from the last sale price, the more likely the order will be sent for manual review. Generally I have overcome this issue by placing my order as close as I think I can to the IOP and also placing the order a minute or two before the open (or close), to allow for the manual review if it is referred.

Most brokers seem to refer orders for manual review more at the opening and closing as this is the time that a higher amount of manipulation seems to be present in the market.

One of the worst I have found for their interpretations of the orderly market rule is Selfwealth. I have had a number of arguments with them regarding thinly traded shares especially ones that have not traded the previous day.

On one occasion I had a holding in a company with both Commsec and Selfwealth. The company had not traded in the last 2 days and the highest market bid during the day was some way from the last sale price. I wanted to sell and Selfwealth flat out refused to place an order for me to sell. Even after I argued with them on the phone they refused.

They insisted it was the ASX that wouldn't allow the trade. I argued it was only their interpretation of the rule that was preventing the trade being placed and that Commsec would accept the same oder. To prove my point while I was on the phone with them, I placed a trade with Commsec at the price Selfwealth wouldn't accept and the parcel sold immediately.

This obviously, moved the last sale price down and I could then place the trade for the same price with Selfwealth. If I had not had the other holding with Commsec, Selfwealth were not going to let me sell the parcel until a new sale occurred closer to the highest buy bid.

The only other way I know of overcoming the problem is to call your broker and place a manual trade. However, the commission for this is prohibitive.

thanks for the input guys. I have asked Comsec what their "algorithm" or rules are so i can take it into account when placing my orders. They say they dont know (or wont disclose?). Im a Comsec One client (supposedly VIP!) but find their attitude one of 'if you dont like it, lump it'...

martyjames said:

thanks for the input guys. I have asked Comsec what their "algorithm" or rules are so i can take it into account when placing my orders. They say they dont know (or wont disclose?). Im a Comsec One client (supposedly VIP!) but find their attitude one of 'if you dont like it, lump it'...

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None of the broking houses will divulge that information. Besides being their intellectual property, it would allow people to work around the algorithm and negate its effect

Many brokers quote a 5% from the last sale price rule, however, I can tell you from experience that it varies greatly from this.

Beaches said:

Many brokers quote a 5% from the last sale price rule, however, I can tell you from experience that it varies greatly from this.

Click to expand...

It has to vary, ultra speccie stocks will be much greater.
So, a factor must also be number of ticks away from last traded.

Beaches said:

Even after I argued with them on the phone they refused.

Click to expand...

Can I have the phone number ?

Selfwealth needs a good sledge, annual client FY reports won't be available until mid August they said yesterday on online assistance.
Pathetic.

martyjames said:

thanks for the input guys. I have asked Comsec what their "algorithm" or rules are so i can take it into account when placing my orders. They say they dont know (or wont disclose?). Im a Comsec One client (supposedly VIP!) but find their attitude one of 'if you dont like it, lump it'...

Click to expand...

there is a reason i have accounts with two different trading platforms

now from what i remember 20% above and below the last market price is what us retail folks are allowed ( full service brokers have extra options like ringing that seller and trading off-market )

Got burn with that, there was a low ball buy order far from last trade, i wanted to get rid of my packet, so ready to sell at that price, but bell direct did not sllow, by the time dome trade occurred, i ended up selling below so losing more money.
It is very frustrating, and yes , BD does not divulge their rules

frugal.rock said:

if you can't buy the only parcel visible, why doesn't the ASX purge the order?

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I've had that problem in the past with a different broker yes, couldn't sell to any order in the market as "price too far....".

I've had far less trouble with CommSec than with the previous broker in that regard. Far, far less trouble. It's one reason I'm using them - not the cheapest brokerage but it actually works, at least it does for the sorts of companies I trade in.

Since there's a difference between brokers, there must be more to it than just the ASX.

i use Commsec and Bell Direct ( both the budget version ) i have the Commsec phone app as well but never take the phone anyway not since that stupid tracking app

but each platform i use has it's strengths and weaknesses , combined they have something i can work with ( also you can double check any glitches )

Smurf1976 said:

Since there's a difference between brokers, there must be more to it than just the ASX.

Click to expand...

No doubt, brokers interpretation. coding of rules.
In the example I provided, I tested a buy order at $0.80 also, it wasn't blanket rejected so would've gone for a manual review, which no doubt would have been put into the market.

Another factor is we don't see the dark market EXCEPT there are clues provided in pre market indicative price.

Here's an example.
The indicative price SURPLUS VOLUME doesn't match what is shown in market depth indicating a dark order.
(Screenshot taken for @aus_trader benefit, but I forgot...it's a couple of weeks old though.)

yes i have noticed some stunning glitches on the market , the best i remember was a tiny mining explorer with one huge sell order

so big it was 3 times the no. of shares on issue , but a really weird number that hinted it was NOT a 'fat finger '

( how the heck do you sell MORE shares than the company has issued )

now when Ms Rinehart was buying AGO putting in an order to buy more shares than officially issued that is legal she was making an on-market ( hostile ) take-over ( but you can't sell what you don't own , legally )

trading lines like above in your post happen a LOT , but you have to be quick to screen-shot them ( during trading to boot )

just two minutes apart , but a fair while back DURING the trading day

frugal.rock said:

Same with Westpac.
Nothing to do with Iress really.
It's all about market rules and what the brokers have coded in.

Click to expand...

I have had no problems with Westpac rejecting buys or sells at open. I keep an eye out on the auction match price and stay at a price near that but at which I will be in the trade.
It appears to me that their limit is based on the match price and not the previous close.
I find that even if the match price is way above or below the previous close, being near it will result in a trade.