Poor cows

[easylikesunday]

Hate to break it to ya people but it doesn't just happen in Indonesia. Cruelty would happen in 90% of the slaughter houses. Its not a racial thing.

I think that to harm to an innocent animal for "fun" is one of the lowest acts a human could do. Its cowardly.

Im a meat eater and have no problem with slaughter houses, providing they do their job properly. But like with any job, if you do the same thing day-in, day-out you will soon get bored and want to have some "fun", as sick as that sounds. How do you lighten up the day in a slaughter house?

The people who work that these places wouldn't see these animals as a living, feeling creature, they would simply see them as another slab of meat. They aren't greenie animal lovers.

Anyway I didnt even watch the four corners thing but I have seen a documentary that covers pretty much whats been said, and more. Its called Earthlings.

Ill warm its not for the faint hearted!

http://youtu.be/ce4DJh-L7Ys

 

[LifeChoices]

No doubt you recorded this event and have watched it over and over many times. Maybe you could organise a rally, send a letter to the Prime Minister or at least go over there to the abbatoir and deal with them a-hole Indo's directly.

Sorry buddy, I didn't record it, organise a rally, send a letter to the Prime minister and didn't even go to the abbatoir.

I put a post up on a public forum, signed a petition and wrote to my local member.

No doubt you would have been pulling the wings of flies, while belting off to your favourite Kenny G album and pressing refresh on this topic waiting for your good buddy to respond.

Good luck with it - toe rag.

From this point on you are dead to me.

 

[tothemax6]

None if it ends like what is happening to the cows who were brutalised. Have you watched the full 4Corners episode? It wasn't just the death of these animals that are an issue it's the fact that some were tortured & grossly mistreated.

Yes, the people involved are sickos. Deliberately prolonging the suffering of an animal, or torturing an animal, for voyeuristic or entertainment purposes is a sign that someone is effed in the head.
From a practical stance, these people should be fired anyway, regardless of moral issues, since they are effectively 'stuffing around' - which is inefficient as far as production is concerned. A fast clean death is best for the animal and everyone involved.

I think we should be tolerant of the Indonesian Muslim culture and invite them to come and live in Australia. I for one would be proud to have anyone and everyone who wants to live here come and be my neighbor. You're all being racist. Australia is the great melting pot, free for all to ruin.

Yes, yes, 'fck cultural relativism' etc, etc.

Well I'm sorry to break it to you, but some people actually care about the way animals are treated, and think that animals are much more than the commodity, you paint them to be.

Maybe in loo-loo land. People stuff animal meat into their faces everyday, thinking only 'this stops me being hungry and tastes good'. Maybe for every 100 minutes they think of that, they might think of the animals involved for about 1 minute.

So, you think a "single clean cut" doesn't hurt the animal? Doesn't leave it gasping for breath? Doesn't leave its brain alive for the last eternity of pain, while the blood slowly drains its life away?

Correct, religious practices such as kocher (where the animal has to be bled out whilst alive) are seriously twisted.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Hate to break it to ya people but it doesn't just happen in Indonesia. Cruelty would happen in 90% of the slaughter houses. Its not a racial thing.

Something the bleeding heart club doesn't know.

The people who work that these places wouldn't see these animals as a living, feeling creature, they would simply see them as another slab of meat. They aren't greenie animal lovers.

One would need to be comfortable killing and after awhile one would be desensitised, feeling nothing at all. My butcher friend wasn't your typical soft touch. He prefers rare cooked meat. Yeesh.

 

[LifeChoices]

 

[disarray]

from a darwinian perspective, the best thing a species can do to ensure its survival is to be
1) tasty to humans, and
2) easily farmed

that said, cruelty should be minimised. it just shows how "primative" most of the world is with regards to human and animal rights.

 

[pixel]

While looking for a reference to an article in today's Weekend West, I came across this opinion piece by Louise Bourke: http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/opinion/post/-/blog/louiseburke/post/232/comment/1/

The article I was after hasn't been put on the web yet; it compares the effect that two separate TV reports had on the collective national Soul. One being the 4 corners report, the other one run on SBS about some appalling conditions in Malaysian refugee camps. And the winner is...

I'll say no more.

 

[Julia]

The article I was after hasn't been put on the web yet; it compares the effect that two separate TV reports had on the collective national Soul. One being the 4 corners report, the other one run on SBS about some appalling conditions in Malaysian refugee camps. And the winner is...

I'll say no more.

Given you have not actually told us which of the two programs had the greater effect on the collective national soul, I'll assume your post is suggesting the one about animals had this greater effect?
I'm sure you'll quickly correct me if I'm wrong.

The implication of your post therefore seems to be that it's worse to inflict cruelty on human beings than on animals. Why?
We all feel pain and terror.

That some people can view animals as creatures deserving of less respect and care than human beings is beyond me.
Human beings at least have the capacity for cognition and language, understanding of the mechanics of their situation, to have a chance to alter their fate.
Animals lack even these basic capacities.

 

[LifeChoices]

Since seeing the program and thinking about being a meat eater, reading the posts I honestly don't think I would have an issue with slaughtering an animal myself for the purpose of consumption, as long as the whole carcase wasn't wasted. My feeling is that cows, sheep, tuna were put on this earth for consumption.

I currently buy meat from a butcher and buy clothes from a store. It is impractical for me to make my own clothes and kill my own animals for consumption.

When I read about Mark Zuccaburg killing his own meat, I thought he's doing a great thing and I wish I was in a position to do the same.

I don't think many people have problems with death and dying. The major problem I have is with disrespect of animals and cruelty.

Cruelty is the lowest of low - and I will never condone it.

 

[Wysiwyg]

This may irk some people but without bad there would be no good. No pleasure without a comparative pain.
This strange grey organ afforded to human has the ability to choose between pain and pleasure. Pleasure derived from inflicting pain on another organism is an unnatural choice. We don't see it in nature.
Further evidence there is not a god because a creator would not create an organism that could conceive this thought. However this pleasure from inflicting pain could be a tangent from the basic survival meme. If the killing process is not critical to the humans survival then they could be trying to get attention (laughs, back slaps, acceptance, initiation etc.) from fellow workers.

You will find bullies and typical d/heads usually won't be nasty unless they have their (so thought) mates attention. Get them by themselves and they are completely different because they have no one to swell their ego-self with.

I love the transparency of grey matter.

 

[LifeChoices]

bahahahaha - Dead to me

 

[Country Lad]

I had a concern about the program from the start seeing that it was filmed by an activist from an organisation whose objective is to shut down live exports and that the reporter later went to those places where the film was taken in a quick visit and did not do any investigative work.

However, I did not have any proof that it was a beatup so I accepted the story as being a half truth of the industry.

The following letter to the ABC is long but worth a read and now I am real concerned that the shutting down of the industry is based on a very one-sided biased presentation of a very small part of the truth.

In case anybody doubts who this guy is, the result of a quick google search is at the bottom of this post.

Dear Sir,
I must introduce myself. My name is Scot Braithwaite and my life has basically revolved around live export since I was 10 years old. I was unloading cattle boats in Malaysia at the age of 13. I have worked for all the major cattle companies including as a Head Stockman in the Northern Territory. I have a degree in economics from the Queensland University and I personally have sold more than 1.5 million head of cattle into Indonesia since 1991. I am presently employed as the marketing manager for Wellard rural exports.

I am writing to you after the Monday program to say that although I abhor the treatment of the animals shown in the video, your one sided approach to the subject and the possible effect of that of a ban on live exports is too big a price to pay for a report based on the evidence of an organization that’s charter is to shut us down. I have the following points to make.

I would like to have the same time as those who denigrated my life to show you the other side of our industry. To show you what is really going on. In Australia there used to be thing about “A fair Go”. You have gone with images provided by one person followed up by your investigative journalist who spent a week in Indonesia.

Your report makes out that close to 100% of Australian cattle are treated as was shown on TV.

1 the ship that appears in the footage “for less than 30 seconds” is a vessel that cost tens of millions of dollars to build. We have had 3 separate media groups sail with this ship and it can in no uncertain terms be described as best in class. The Wellard group has another 3 vessels of the same standard with another 2 being built in China. This is a total investment of 400 million dollars to ensure that livestock exports from Australia are undertaken at the utmost levels of cow comfort and animal welfare.

2 the feedlot that was filmed was given a 10 second view. This feedlot is without a doubt world class. Your viewers should have at least had the opportunity to view large numbers of cattle eating and sleeping comfortably in a fantastic facility. This company has in addition moved to kill all his cattle through stunning system that he has control of. This owner has spent 20 years of his life in the industry, has built his business from nothing, has done all that is required of him from an animal welfare point of view yet your reporter makes no mention of these things.

3 within A 3 HOUR DRIVE OR a 15 Minute helicopter there are another 3 world class facilities. All three feedlots including the one filmed, are at, or better than, what can be found in Australia. The cattle being fed, and the ration being fed, leads to a lot less animal health issues then a similar size operation in Australia.
One of these facilities is operated and owned by a large Australian pastoral house. They had no mention in your supposed unbiased report. The operation is run by a North Queensland man who, through His absolute dedication to excellence has built a feedlot and slaughtering system that his company, the industry and himself can be very proud of. The system is closed, all the cattle are already killed through their own abattoir. They import 20 to 25000 cattle year. They have been doing this for at least 5 years. Why should they be shut down? For what reason could anyone justify closing this operation down, especially without even bothering to look at what goes on.

4 the other world class feedlots that could have been investigated with a 3 hour ride in the car are owned by a large publicly listed Indonesian company. In all, they have on feed 50,000 cattle and import about 120,000 cattle a year. They have recently built an abattoir( the one that was briefly shown on the program) They built this 2 years ago as they knew that modern methods must come to Indonesia and they were willing to make the investment to make it happen. The total investment from these 3 feedlotters alone in infrastructure and stock is over 100 million dollars.

Add to that the hundreds of millions that Wellard have recently invested in ships and do you really believe that these people would leave the final product to a murderous bastard with a blunt knife?

They not only have tried to ensure the welfare of the animal but have made investments to make the changes all along the chain. These people deserve to have their side of the story heard. If the system is not perfect, and it isn’t, they have the wherewithal and the incentive to make it happen in a very short time.
These 3 importers who have shown a commitment to everything good about animal production, handle 45 % of total imports.

The other major issue that was not covered was the social responsibility that all feedlotters in Indonesia practice. Their operations are in relatively isolated poor areas; the feedlots provide employment opportunity, advancement through effort, and a market for thousands of tons of feedstuffs grown for the cattle. My understanding is that 8000 people are directly employed by the feedlots and over 1000000 people are reliant on the regular income made from supplying corn silage and other feedstuffs. This is not made up, it is fact. It can be easily checked. I will bet my 1000000 farmers against the 1000000 signatures on the ban order.

It is very easy to sit in your comfortable chair and criticize but is it really worth the human cost to ban something that can be fixed and fixed reasonable quickly?

That is Sumatra. In JKT there is the largest privately owned abattoir that kills about 4 to 6000 heads a month. It is a well run facility that has no welfare issues. In addition it was working on getting a stun system in place well before the 4 corners report. No photos from here, yet this is another who has been doing the right thing and who will lose his business if the trade is banned. The largest Importer in to Jakarta, has also built a slaughter facility in the past 12 months. It has not been commissioned yet but can be made ready within a month. They also have a private bone to pick with the program.

AS was not reported in the show, abattoirs in Indonesia are operated by any number of individual ‘Wholesalers”. They control the space and the manpower kills their number for the night and then hand over to the next team. In any one night 8 to 10 separate operators can be using the same facility. In the case of the footage of the head slapping the camera panned to the cattle waiting and the tags of AA, Newcastle Waters and his company were made very prominent.

Yes, they were there but the team that handled was different to one being filmed. They protest, that their crews are well trained, no head slapping occurs and very large and sharp knives are used to ensure a bloody but quick end. I have no reason to doubt them because I have seen a lot of their cattle handled at point of slaughter and their crews are well trained with immediate results. Where can their case be heard? I have watched literally thousands of cattle slaughtered in the boxes in Indonesia.

Yes there are problems, as there are at every point of slaughter on every type of animal in the world, but 98% of the cattle I watched killed was quick and without fuss. Why is there not one shot of what happens 98% of the time? The shots of outright cruelty are totally unacceptable and the slaughter of cattle is still gruesome and confronting but is not as prevalent as portrayed in your report. Yes it does some times happen but it is the exception not the rule. And we are already
taking steps to improve the system and we have the ability to ensure all animals are stunned in a very short time.

Yes there are a couple of operators who in the short term will not be able to handle the new way. But they will be dropped, no commitment to stunning, no supply. No negotiation. There are also a number of operators privately owned who were, to all intents and purposes, doing the right thing. They were asked to supply through the boxes and they have. They will be asked to only supply though a stunning FACILITY and they will. They have far too much invested in the whole industry over many years to not do as we ask.

I am asking for a fair go. You have been expertly manipulated. Hear the actual other side of the story let the Australian public see both sides. I am happy to make all the arrangements.

This is too important to let sit with the images you portrayed on Monday without recourse.

Scot Braithwaite

 

[Country Lad]

Oops, forgot the google search:

A quick Google search can confirm his qualifications
http://www.wellardgroup.com.au/wellard_rural_exports/international_expertise/scot_braithwaite.phtml

Scot Braithwaite has had a long association with the cattle industry and South East Asia.

His family moved to Malaysia in 1972 where they ran an 8000 head extensive breeding operation at Keratong on the Pahang Johor border in West Malaysia. Two of Wellard’s current clients were clients of Scot’s father way back in 1976.

Returning to Australia, Scot was a jackaroo on a number of northern stations and gained an economics degree from the University of Queensland.
After University he worked for the Northern Territory Government treasury, large pastoral empires Stanbroke Pastoral Company and Heytesbury Pastoral Company; and exporters Austrex, SEAF and Austasia.

Scot has a majority share of NFDH Cattle Company which is a joint venture partner with Wellard in South East Asia. He also is the chairman of JFDI Fine Foods which is a meat processing and retailing operation in Malaysia.

Scot spends equal amounts of time in Indonesia and Malaysia and looks forward to the day when Wellard is exporting half a million cattle a year into the region.

 

[trainspotter]

Not wanting to sound or be read as a "crazed cow killer" ....... how else do you kill the beasts? Cut their throats, stun gun them or make them watch repeats of Seinfeld til they are truly brain dead.

Yes the images of cows being slapped and having their throats cut is disturbing. This is what happens in a "slaughterhouse". They were not going there to have their hooves trimmed now were they?

The other thing that ticks me off is that we have SOLD these cattle to Indonesia. Who are we to dictate what they do with them thereafter? Yes yes yes there were some disturbing practices going on by Australian standards. Remember Indo is a 3rd world country.

The iron ore we sell/send to China ... can we dictate to them what they do with the mineral after it has been smelted? As in dictate to China that the iron ore that Australia supplies cannot be used to manufacture military weapons? I think not.

I find a RODEO far more disturbing whereby animals are tortured in the name of "entertainment" by having a flank strap around a bulls genitals to make it kick harder.

Australian live export trade is worth over a billion dollars a year let alone how many people it employs. To total ban it does not make sense.

On the other hand a GLUT of beef in the Australian market will only cause prices of sirloin to come crashing down to an edible (and affordable) level. RIGHT?

 

[pilots]

Country lad, top post, what the government has done will not SURPRISE any one, what can you expect from Labor, name ONE thing they have got right.
What do the bleeding hearts think about the Whaling.

 

[Calliope]

The iron ore we sell/send to China ... can we dictate to them what they do with the mineral after it has been smelted? As in dictate to China that the iron ore that Australia supplies cannot be used to manufacture military weapons? I think not.

This ban is being imposed by the same hypocrites who claim that rising C02 emissions is a threat to mankind. Perhaps now we should say to the Chinese that we will stop our massive exports of coal until they assure us that it will not be converted into carbon pollution.

 

[Julia]

Not wanting to sound or be read as a "crazed cow killer" ....... how else do you kill the beasts? Cut their throats, stun gun them or make them watch repeats of Seinfeld til they are truly brain dead.

There's nothing complicated about what is necessary. Stun them into unconsciousness before killing. Why should that be so hard?

Yes the images of cows being slapped and having their throats cut is disturbing. This is what happens in a "slaughterhouse". They were not going there to have their hooves trimmed now were they?

As long as they are stunned quickly first then I doubt you will find many arguments about them being killed. No one is trying to stop the production of animals for human consumption: simply asking that they be properly treated.

The other thing that ticks me off is that we have SOLD these cattle to Indonesia. Who are we to dictate what they do with them thereafter? Yes yes yes there were some disturbing practices going on by Australian standards. Remember Indo is a 3rd world country.

That's not really the point. Animal cruelty should be abhorred wherever it occurs.

I find a RODEO far more disturbing whereby animals are tortured in the name of "entertainment" by having a flank strap around a bulls genitals to make it kick harder.

That's also totally unacceptable imo. Ditto bullfighting.
Why should people consider that animals are on this earth for their amusement?

 

[trainspotter]

There's nothing complicated about what is necessary. Stun them into unconsciousness before killing. Why should that be so hard?

As long as they are stunned quickly first then I doubt you will find many arguments about them being killed. No one is trying to stop the production of animals for human consumption: simply asking that they be properly treated.

That's not really the point. Animal cruelty should be abhorred wherever it occurs.

That's also totally unacceptable imo. Ditto bullfighting.
Why should people consider that animals are on this earth for their amusement?

Halal requires their throats to be cut facing a certain longitude and latitude. Whether or not this occurs is a different matter. The industry is trying to bring in stun gun use across the board at the cost of the Australian Meat Exporter. Humane treatment of ALL animals is what is the key here.

Abhorration of animal cruelty depends on the country. **** fighting is legal in Indonesia. Many customs that occur o/s is unacceptable here. I wont go into detail.

Tell that to a "cowboy" who is a rootin tootin kind. I have met many of these kind.

 

[Glen48]

**** fighting is here in the Philippines every second house has a rooster tired to 3 ft of string and a placed under a hut of rubbish in the shape of a tee pee no one know they need food and water the locals bring around their roosters to test each rooster out the Fight night the rooster has a spur on one leg and I have seen a DVD on a bus were a rooster was trying to walk away from an dead rooster with the spur still stuck in the dead one. Fights are big business here with a lot of money changing hands.
The dying rooster is forced to keep fighting for as long as possible.. This is in place with the biggest Catholic following in the world ... Now let me start on pigs on concrete floors in steel pipe cages were the female is a just a machine to breed.

how do you change that?

 

[trainspotter]

My point exactly Clithero. My point exactly.