Poker

Playing at www.pokerroom.com based on jersey's pointer above (didn't do any research on sites - but sounds like its a pretty popular one).

I've been enjoying it - yeah I'll have to get a thicker skin - was a bit unexpected - so used to sites being moderated these days thats its been a while since I've copped a hard core stream of swearing and insults like that.

I probably am doing a few donkey bets in the heat of the moment, but overall getting to know my odds, and sometimes, depending on: the pot, the flop, the hand, the position, and the opponent ... a silly bet isn't so silly

And just like trading - the only thing youv'e got control over is how much you lose ...

cuttlefish said:

Well the more I've been playing the more I see it has a lot of similarities to trading. Starting to get the hang of it a bit - money management and playing the odds is key.

Jersey - I copped some pretty severe abuse in the side table chat on pokerroom after winning an all-in hand - have you had anything like this?

Probably an experienced player thinking I donked the river but I did actually deliberately walk it in and figured the out-odds before taking the bet.

But is this sort of abuse common after winning a big pot this way?

It was a bit rattling 'cos it involved a lot of swearing and insults and the bloke kept ranting for quite a few hands afterwards... (He did a full top up and I got that off him a few hands later as well ). But I would have thought they'd have moderators in there to stop that sort of stuff.

I can take a bit of banter and some moderate insults (had a few of those too) but this bloke lost the plot. I guess I'll just have to develop a thick skin.

Have you ever played any tournaments in person as opposed to online?

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When i used to play the play money games i remember a bit more chat but not so much in the real money games. It certainly isn't a regular occurrence to have people abuse you in the chat. Usually it will probably be people who are trying to put you on tilt or people you have put on tilt by outplaying / bad beating them.

I usually play once or twice a fortnight in free games with APL at a pub here in Brisbane. They have them all over Australia check here: www.playapl.com

I also play in cash games at the Treasury Casino once or twice a fortnight. They also offer tournaments at the casino on a Sunday afternoon / night for a $100 buy in. Don't get me started on the casino though.

This shows two of the best poker players you will see. Gus Hansen and Phil Ivey. Also shows how the cards you have are only a small part of the game.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=-X1K1J-Zk40

And my personal favourite Dave 'Devilfish' Ulliott. Cuttlefish if you like a bit of table banter this guy would be great to play a game with. Very humorous and a great ability to read other players as shown in this clip:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=P0fJFPhK57Q&feature=related

jersey10 said:

When i used to play the play money games i remember a bit more chat but not so much in the real money games. It certainly isn't a regular occurrence to have people abuse you in the chat. Usually it will probably be people who are trying to put you on tilt or people you have put on tilt by outplaying / bad beating them.

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It was a real money game (pocket aces beat pocket kings - pretty flukey to have the two best starting hands in the one game I suppose ). I probably played it like a dunce though who knows . (but people are so sketchy in the real money games that if you do a showdown pre-flop half the time you only end up with the blinds so I walked it in.).

I've been enjoying playing - it is interesting when you play a lot how you start to see the importance of position and pot odds etc.

jersey10 said:

Don't get me started on the casino though.

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So tell me about the casino

cuttlefish said:

It was a real money game (pocket aces beat pocket kings - pretty flukey to have the two best starting hands in the one game I suppose ). I probably played it like a dunce though who knows . (but people are so sketchy in the real money games that if you do a showdown pre-flop half the time you only end up with the blinds so I walked it in.).

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Funny you mention this scenario. I was playing a few weeks ago at the casino and got pocket aces in the small blind. The guy next to me in the big blind got kings. Pre-flop there were a couple of callers around to me i raised to $20, the guy with kings re-raised to $40 everyone else folded, i pushed all in for $100 more kings called me. My aces held up and i collected a pot of about $260. Then about 10 hands later i got Aces again this time up against Jacks both all in before the flop. Jack hit on the turn so i lost about $120 on that pot. Reason i only lost $100 was because i took $100 from my previous win off the table and 'banked' it in my pocket.

cuttlefish said:

So tell me about the casino

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I can't work them out, the people who run the casino that is. They are either totally inept at running a business, get away with murder because they have a monopoly on 'real money' poker or are using some sinister tactics to make you go and play other casino games (where you have much more chance of losing your money to them) while they make you wait to play poker. Highly likely that is a combination of all three. You can show up on a Saturday night (or at any time for that matter) and wait for hours on a waiting list to play poker, while they have 2, 3 or even 4 of their 8 tables closed. This is so frustrating and really contributes to Brisbane's image as a country town. Many of the internationals i chat to on the tables say the same thing.
Then there is the rake they take for each pot, which makes it even more inexplicable that they would ever have a waiting list. From memory the rake is 10% of every pot up to a maximum of $10. I would say there would be 30 hands per hour and most rakes would be the max of $10. So based on these figures, they are collecting $250 - $300 per hour per table. Now i think they would be paying the dealers $40 per hour max, why then would it not be an absolute priority to never have a waiting list or have a waiting list of no more than a few to keep all tables full. I can only refer to the 3 reasons i mentioned above. On top of this they could make more money if they had someone bringing drinks to the table. I would probably drink twice as many coronas (which they charge $6.70 for) and vodka sunrise (which they charge about $6 for) if they had table service but they don't. Given that i might do a 10 hour session on any given night (as would many others there) they take in rakings for the one table during that time about $3000. If i was in charge of the poker pit i would have it full, i would be making the punters happy by getting rid of the waiting list and i would be making the casino a sh!tload more money.

This annoys me so much i have done a bit of research into what you need to do to get a gaming license for poker. Apparently they are incredibly expensive and quite difficult to get in QLD. Definitely a business opportunity there in Brisbane city IMHO.

Totally agree regarding the hopeless Treasury Casino poker room

Empty tables, wait list, no cocktail service, closing full tables...

No wonder Tabcorp (TAH) is doing hopelessly. Goes to show a business built on a license to steal from stupid people getting unders in TAB markets cannot organise a decent casino.

The blackjack is pathetic as well. Who wants to play a deck with no 10's at $50 minimum with no table service?

Go to Crown for a week Jersey, a really good facility, you can even eat a meal at the poker table brought to you by a waitress.

Personally, I seldom play outside of games between friends now. I find poker attracts the scum of the earth whether online or in casinos. Too many wannabes and weirdos to be able to handle sitting next to for 8 hours.

Further, after seeing multiple hands at one online poker table being played in the same room at a mates place - I will never play cash games online again. It is too easy to fix and I also note the level of 'bot' activity online as a concern.

We play a regular $200 buy in nolimit cash game at friends residences on Saturday nights.

Poker is certainly a traders game.

BSD said:

Poker is certainly a traders game.

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There's a weekly game with some of my workmates every Fri/Sat night.
I never attend, none of them are traders or stock market investors for that matter.

BSD said:

Totally agree regarding the hopeless Treasury Casino poker room

Empty tables, wait list, no cocktail service, closing full tables...

No wonder Tabcorp (TAH) is doing hopelessly. Goes to show a business built on a license to steal from stupid people getting unders in TAB markets cannot organise a decent casino.

The blackjack is pathetic as well. Who wants to play a deck with no 10's at $50 minimum with no table service?

Go to Crown for a week Jersey, a really good facility, you can even eat a meal at the poker table brought to you by a waitress.

Personally, I seldom play outside of games between friends now. I find poker attracts the scum of the earth whether online or in casinos. Too many wannabes and weirdos to be able to handle sitting next to for 8 hours.

Further, after seeing multiple hands at one online poker table being played in the same room at a mates place - I will never play cash games online again. It is too easy to fix and I also note the level of 'bot' activity online as a concern.

We play a regular $200 buy in nolimit cash game at friends residences on Saturday nights.

Poker is certainly a traders game.

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where do they play blackjack with no 10s? Is this at the treasury?

I have heard good things about Crown Casino. Am definitely going to go there for a visit sometime soon.

I haven't had too many bad experiences playing with weirdos. It is actually one of the aspects of 'real' poker that i like - the interaction with other people on the table and the banter. It's great when you go to the casino and get on the table with a witty Irish guy, sitting next to a a witty Cockney and they are all having a friendly go at each other - good fun. One thing i do dislike is when you get a wannabe sitting down who thinks they are the gun and just talks **** continuously for 8 hours.

I have often wondered about poker bots and table fixing. So the guy who had multiple seats on the same table had multiple IP addresses setup??

Yes, at the end of a 'long' evening a month or so ago I played some 'blackjack' in a nice quiet room at the Treasury without looking at the rules, waiting for a spot on a $5-$10 NL table downstairs.

I hadn't played in a while, so didnt worry about checking the 'rules' of the 'blackjack' I was playing. I used to always be aware of the '21/Pontoon' tables, but they used to be only thrust upon $5 games.

Anyway, the upside of the 'no 10s' game is that they pay you out on 21 before checking the dealer cards for a push and you can 'rescue' your cards on a double down when you dont like your card.

I asked the dealer why he was paying me on such hands and offering me deals and he noted the lack of 10s in the deck!

On further reading, I discovered this game is called 'Spanish 21' and lowers the solid bj player to a 2.5% overall disadvantage. Nice...

Anyway, the Treasury b00bs shut down the whole room full of players at 12am with all boxes full of $50+ bets on our table because of roster issues. Smart...

It wasnt hard to log onto multiple hands at the same table online. No proxies or similar where even used. If someone was motivated and savvy they could do it forever at volume. I watched guys playing both cash games and tourneys.

As for bots - play some $1-$2 on PartyPoker and tell me the Russian domiciled masses with $40 max buy-in (on $200 tables) who are only playing AA and AK all-in arent part of a math based syndicate. Online Poker is a sham

As for the 'poker people' - it may be a reflection on my problems and not those of others. But I find the fun "chat" is often drowned out by muppet experts who think they are WPC material - but appear snagged at the $5-$10 NL tables at the Treasury being massively dissapointed by the no Ipod rule!

If you have the time to work out a business plan on how to set up a proper card room in Brisbane send me a PM! Would love to assist...

Sadly though, it took us years to allow a simple no-limit game at the casino

Governments would prefer mugs lost 15% per hand playing horses or rigged computer games...

BSD said:

It wasnt hard to log onto multiple hands at the same table online. No proxies or similar where even used. If someone was motivated and savvy they could do it forever at volume. I watched guys playing both cash games and tourneys.

As for bots - play some $1-$2 on PartyPoker and tell me the Russian domiciled masses with $40 max buy-in (on $200 tables) who are only playing AA and AK all-in arent part of a math based syndicate. Online Poker is a sham

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Cheers for the heads up on the online situation. I was a bit curious about this (I know there are a lot of people playing multiple table simultaneously and so also assumed there would likely be multiple people colluding on single tables from time to time but its interesting to hear it confirmed). But isn't this just the equivalent of 'market makers' and prop shops/desks etc. in poker?

I'm a novice (so probably would be one of those annoying people next to you at the casino lol ) but as long as you are playing the odds and 'to your plan' shouldn't you theoretically still be able to win against these situations - even including against bots? (e.g. theoretically any true automaton would be predictable and/or bluffable?

Also it seems that different tables have their own characteristics depending on the player mix - some styles of play will work with one group of people but not so much with other groups? Would this be programmable (I guess it theoretically would - including assessing and rating player characteristics for online players ... but then even that would be able to be manipulated by a good player by mixing up their play tactics?).

edit: If I ever get to a casino to play I'll have to make sure I talk about the weather and sport and not poker ...

cuttlefish said:

but as long as you are playing the odds and 'to your plan' shouldn't you theoretically still be able to win against these situations - even including against bots? (e.g. theoretically any true automaton would be predictable and/or bluffable?

Also it seems that different tables have their own characteristics depending on the player mix - some styles of play will work with one group of people but not so much with other groups?

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The bots only bother in me in that you lose some romance. Knowing they will go all in on all 50%+ props (AA, AK) is boring, but not cheating. I would often enjoy the bot play because you had a firm understanding of what they played.

The automatic stuff isnt technical, it is all in on 50% or better plays. They would play 100 players at $40 buy in to $200 tables. I would assume they have a 5-10% advantage over 1000s of hands and the syndicate would do vrey well. The poker rooms dont care because it stimulates many all in pre flop hands for good rake.

But multiple players on the same table, while being beatable on a hand by hand basis (they still don't know what you have), have a massive statistical advantage over 100 hands. A good hand is even better when you know you have 3 of the 6 players covered and can use the insiders to pump the pot!


Dont be afraid to play or talk at a table. Most of the know alls are the worst players.

My personal favourites are the textbook talkers who dont have any pellets. They can tell you the pot odds you have placed them in, but they dont have the prunes to match some good raising of a pot. They have the belief in their ability to play higher buy ins, but not the cajones or the bankroll.

As they fold they will try and put you on a hand - "AQ or medium pockets, blah blah" but 90% of the time they are wrong

Calculating odds only takes you so far in poker - making opponents make decisions they dont want to make and being ambivalent to losing money is more important.

Like trading shares, many times it is best to lose 10 small pots before landing one monster a session that makes up for the losses a couple of times over.

But as you say, it depends on your table. Against weak players, you will steal small pots all night and fold to any large action.

BSD said:

But multiple players on the same table, while being beatable on a hand by hand basis (they still don't know what you have), have a massive statistical advantage over 100 hands. A good hand is even better when you know you have 3 of the 6 players covered and can use the insiders to pump the pot!

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Actually this is a good point that I didn't think through properly - they know which cards have come out of the deck to the other hands, so there's a distinct statistical advantage - so yes - well worth bearing in mind when playing online.

Calculating odds only takes you so far in poker - making opponents make decisions they dont want to make and being ambivalent to losing money is more important.

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Cheers - this is good insight. Knowing the odds seems to me to be an essential element to success. But its how they are played that makes a player succesful.

Well for me i actually prefer playing live (at the tables) as i find you have more of an advantage over the players. You can pick up tells, make them think your weak/strong and its easier to bluff since placing chips is harder then clicking a button on the computer.

The only problem with tables is the only cash ring games allowed is at the casino! (and home games of course).

New to the forums, but couldnt resist weighing in on this one. Just to let you guys know that 99.99%+ of the time you are being fleeced by players that are better than you. Yes, collusion does happen, and yes poker sites have been caught cheating their customers in the past. But, tbh when cheating goes on, its caught reasonably quick, usually by the community itself. Also, the bigger sites such as pokerstars and fulltilt are about as safe as a brick and mortar casino like treasury.

As for similarities between playing poker at the professional level and trading - there is a bunch. Bankroll management for one thing, while my expertise relates to tournaments primarily all reasonably players need it. Generally for tournaments 200 x the average buy-in played is a sufficient bankroll.

The similarities don't end there though. Computer analysis software is often utilized to fine tune the most +EV (expected value) lines to take in hands. That is a common misconception around poker, that everything comes down to reads, tells and bravado - undoubtedly these three things play a big role both live and online, but fundamental knowledge is the real big winner. There are others though, you really do develop an investors mindset as you search for small edges while embracing the wild ride that is variance.

Thats the beauty of poker really - it's deceptively simple. Anyway the moral of the story is, if your a trader play some internet poker and let the good times roll .... for me

I wanted to hear from members on this forum about their thoughts on trying to make money from poker as a side income.

From articles I have read on the internet online poker is getting increasingly competitive with each passing year. However the lowest limit tables (good players don't bother with these tables therefore not as competitive) still possibly offer a profit opportunity due to the higher ratio of amateurs to professionals.

How realistic is it for an average guy with average intelligence and average mathematical ability who reads books about poker strategy, uses the right tools and software and plays daily for 6 months to become good enough to earn a side income from online poker? The strategy would be to play sit and go poker online on the lowest limit tables whilst playing multiple hands at a time. The goal is to win money from amateurs a.k.a. 'fish'.

I understand the concept of variance, but how possible/likely is it over the long run for Mr. Average to make say an average hourly rate of $5 - $10 AUD? While it does not sound like much it allows you to be location independent and live in cheap countries (think South East Asia or South America or Eastern Europe). Am well aware of the bots and house rake and table rigging issues. After all of that considered is it still viable?

Also what about applying the concept to playing at low limit tables at physical casinos where less professionals tend to play (because they can play more hands/tables at once by playing online)?

Value Hunter said:

I wanted to hear from members on this forum about their thoughts on trying to make money from poker as a side income.

From articles I have read on the internet online poker is getting increasingly competitive with each passing year. However the lowest limit tables (good players don't bother with these tables therefore not as competitive) still possibly offer a profit opportunity due to the higher ratio of amateurs to professionals.

How realistic is it for an average guy with average intelligence and average mathematical ability who reads books about poker strategy, uses the right tools and software and plays daily for 6 months to become good enough to earn a side income from online poker? The strategy would be to play sit and go poker online on the lowest limit tables whilst playing multiple hands at a time. The goal is to win money from amateurs a.k.a. 'fish'.

I understand the concept of variance, but how possible/likely is it over the long run for Mr. Average to make say an average hourly rate of $5 - $10 AUD? While it does not sound like much it allows you to be location independent and live in cheap countries (think South East Asia or South America or Eastern Europe). Am well aware of the bots and house rake and table rigging issues. After all of that considered is it still viable?

Also what about applying the concept to playing at low limit tables at physical casinos where less professionals tend to play (because they can play more hands/tables at once by playing online)?

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I know a guy who, as a student, made $300/wk playing a few hours/day online. But this was back in the 90's. According to him, anyone with good maths could do the same, but not now he says.

A guy called pavillion who used to post here was a championship player. He hasn't posted in ages. Had melt down with his trading, I think. Maybe you could try contacting him. Tech\a knows him well.

Value Hunter said:

I wanted to hear from members on this forum about their thoughts on trying to make money from poker as a side income.

From articles I have read on the internet online poker is getting increasingly competitive with each passing year. However the lowest limit tables (good players don't bother with these tables therefore not as competitive) still possibly offer a profit opportunity due to the higher ratio of amateurs to professionals.

How realistic is it for an average guy with average intelligence and average mathematical ability who reads books about poker strategy, uses the right tools and software and plays daily for 6 months to become good enough to earn a side income from online poker? The strategy would be to play sit and go poker online on the lowest limit tables whilst playing multiple hands at a time. The goal is to win money from amateurs a.k.a. 'fish'.

I understand the concept of variance, but how possible/likely is it over the long run for Mr. Average to make say an average hourly rate of $5 - $10 AUD? While it does not sound like much it allows you to be location independent and live in cheap countries (think South East Asia or South America or Eastern Europe). Am well aware of the bots and house rake and table rigging issues. After all of that considered is it still viable?

Also what about applying the concept to playing at low limit tables at physical casinos where less professionals tend to play (because they can play more hands/tables at once by playing online)?

Click to expand...

I have a mate who quit his full time job to pursue it a few years ago, he taught me how to play sit and go and I ended up winning a couple of grand. He was making a bit more than $30 an hour If I recall after factoring in for large variances (which did occur) which was quite decent because it was before rake back and of course it was tax free. He was playing $16 sit and go turbos and multi tabling something like 16-20 tables at once which was quite amazing to watch. He read books to learn and also paid for video subscriptions from online professionals with their guide how to win. He then purchased Holdem Manager which enabled him to analyze his play to determine if he was making +ev decisions. He ended up getting quite burnt out from it as it takes a huge amount of concentration and discipline to multi-table for 8 hours a day and went back to his day job.

It's achievable for sure and you don't need to be a rocket scientist but I do know the competition has become a lot tougher in recent years (less fish). Now winning in casino is a bit more complicated because they're cash games (cash is more difficult to learn than sit and go) but basic sit and go knowledge puts you ahead of most other random players. The problem is Casino rake is a lot higher than online which means you require a greater edge over opponents to profit.