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Pascal's Wager

DeepState

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Pascal's Wager

The French mathematician Blaise Pascal (1623-62) put forward an argument that would appeal to agnostics. (An agnostic is someone who believes that it is impossible to prove God's existence.)

His argument goes something like this: God either exists or he does not. If we believe in God and he exists, we will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven. If we believe in God and he does not exist then at worst all we have forgone is a few sinful pleasures.

If we do not believe in God and he does exist we may enjoy a few sinful pleasures, but we may face eternal damnation. If we do not believe in God and he does not exist then our sins will not be punished.

Would any rational gambler think that the experience of a few sinful pleasures is worth the risk of eternal damnation?
 
Addendum: Belief in God is taken to mean undertaking behaviours required for salvation and avoiding damnation in the event that this God exists and is thus (a/the) true God.

If the above is not acceptable, there is nothing to discuss.
 
I always enjoy reading your posts RY - I appreciate the intelligence and logic behind them, even if I sometimes disagree on the conclusions.

I reject the premise that you're more rational to choose one (any) god over none to hedge your bets. It relies on quite a few faulty premises and in my view creates a falsely linear/binary decision.

VC outlined quite a few flaws (hopefully he'll repeat them here). One that he didn't mention is that the very concept/emphasis of damnation is (to my knowledge) more or less unique to Christianity/Islam. Given this puzzle relies on a premise of punishment it creates a false paradigm. Sorry, I can't seem to explain this clearly.

But for me the most problematic issue is that you will actually be punished MORE for choosing the wrong God. Heresy is a much greater crime than apathy. So in that sense, we have a positive incentive NOT to choose a particular religion. As such, the most logical way of hedging your bets is to choose no God, and thus avoid choosing the wrong one. Pascal's concept only makes sense if we look strictly to Christianity vs Atheism (or strictly Islam or Atheism), but falls apart when we consider that multiple religions conflict, and punish us for choosing the wrong one.
 
On another note, I've been meaning to reply to your response regarding correlation/causation/Muslim crime, but am swamped in exams and haven't had a chance yet.
 
Just adding this to the thread,

1, What if you choose the wrong god out of the thousands and thousands to choose from, most of the gods might take that as a bigger insult than non belief, So you would be committed to hell where a non believer might not.

2, It's not a free bet, you have to give up things in this life, which is the only one we know exists, and depending on the random faith you choose, these could be substantial.

3, Belief is not a choice, you can't choose to believe, you either are convinced or your not. If your convinced, you don't need the pascals wager concept, if your not convinced, your not going to fool god anyway, and I god that likes honesty might put you in hell.



 
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I don't know how it's possible to 'choose to believe' in anything. Perhaps it's a matter of semantics, but to me belief implies conviction.

I've never seen any evidence to convince me that there is a god, so how could I be in a position to choose to believe in one?

And how are 'sinful pleasures' defined? Is the argument coming back to religion being the arbiter of morality?

PS I've just seen VC's post. His final point goes to what I'm saying above. No all powerful, all seeing god is going to be convinced by someone who occasionally gets on their knees, and says "Hello god, just in case you're actually there, please put me down on the side of the good guys".
 
Addendum: Belief in God is taken to mean undertaking behaviours required for salvation and avoiding damnation in the event that this God exists and is thus (a/the) true God.

If the above is not acceptable, there is nothing to discuss.

well I guess we have nothing to discuss, because that's not the definition of belief.

belief is an acceptance that something exists or is true.

I think your just changing the definition of belief to fit your argument.
 
Pascal's Wager

Would any rational gambler think that the experience of a few sinful pleasures is worth the risk of eternal damnation?

I read this when I studied philosophy.. and here's my rational response to this argument.

1. God is all knowing. So if you believe in God on this premise, God will null your scores and condamn you anyway
.
2. As God didn't specify when you need to start believing. A rational agent should start to believe as close to death as possible. That way you get to enjoy the sinful pleasures for as long as you can without the corresponding punishment. The catch is that if you die in a "sudden" manner (i.e. within seconds with no chance of last thoughts) then you might die a sinner.

3. You can also work out mathematically what is the most advantageous time (i.e. maximise time of sinful pleasures while minimising chance of (2) above) to declare your belief in God. I think it'd be something like average life expectancy in your country of residence x 1/e (e = the exponential function).

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...t=17952&page=3&p=511137&viewfull=1#post511137


4. There are more than one God put forward by different religions... so picking the wrong one is just as bad.
 
As multiple people have said - belief isn't a choice. Even as a child I saw Pascal's concept more as a paradox than anything else. Logically, it can't make sense - and I had, until now, thought this goes without saying.

I left all the (sound arguments) of VC, Julia and SKC aside, because I find the most interesting one (on a religious level) to be the clash of religions. I think this idea is one of the most powerful/most persuasive arguments against religion generally, and hence why I focussed on it. (e.g. your choice of religion ultimately being the result of location, luck, period in time, ... and the fact that the religions expressly exclude each other)
 
Also the benefits of atheism are not just sinful pleasures, you are also freed from the burden of doing nasty things to your fellow travellers.

eg, I am free to support the rights of woman and the lgbt community, without the thought that I might be annoying a god who cares who we sleep with.

My uncle didn't go to the funeral of his still born grandchild, because his daughter had had sex outside of marriage and lived with her boyfriend, To me that's a real cost.
 
I think VC, Herzy, Weatsop and others have said it all.

If there's a chance of either eternal bliss or eternal damnation, I think it's more rational to not believe in any God, or any religion.

Just like I can't discipline someone else's kids, why would God or Buddha punish me if I do not believe in them? If I am not one of their children, not on their list, who are they to punish me? Unless I, like all of humanity, are children of one of them... in which case me worshipping the "wrong" god is a bad mistake off the bat.

But I also agree with skc that if you were to follow this wager, do all your sinner and just before you kick the bucket, get baptised and all is forgiven and Heaven here you come. But then as VC points out, God might know your scheme all along and punish you for trying to pull one on Him.
 
So very pleased you're here.

I reject the premise that you're more rational to choose one (any) god over none to hedge your bets. It relies on quite a few faulty premises and in my view creates a falsely linear/binary decision.
We need to break this problem down. We need to begin from the concept that there may be a God amongst a very long list of false ones which just keep growing. But, we need to set aside any notion about different grades of salvation or damnation. Whilst I/you might agree that this is actually the case, Pascal's toy makes no such statement. We are discussing the toy.

VC's arguments are largely captured in the clip he attached and I'll add the ones from Hitchens and Dawkins which add to that. I do not want to speak for VC, but I feel that the clips are stand alone and I do not intentionally mean to use them to put words in VC's mouth. I'll just stick to the clips.

Interesting point. What if the God is not a punisher? That falls into the realm that you still might as well believe because you did not know things were so chill with the Big Guy. You would be forgiven for all the stupidity that you undertook in your life. All the wickedness too, if that was what you were participating in in a false belief.

It was a waste of effort and costly in retrospect. Absolutely. However, before that piece of information is revealed, Pascal's wager says you have to bet anyway. You could not know it was a waste of effort until you got there. However, what if the Big Guy requires all sorts of stuff to be granted passage? There is no distinct probability shape here. Only uncertainty. Given the consequences are possibly damnation, you have to act in a way that minimizes the possibility of this unacceptable outcome. You need to set aside any notion of morality here. This is just a concept. It might be that God requires you to eat three donuts a week. Just think of it that way. Any other embellishment is actually separate to the wager itself. The wager does not claim to be moral. It's just a toy.

This is the same argument against the wager that is considered to debunk this concept. It is quite possible that what you say is correct. If it is, then this wager is junk. Dawkins and the clip which VC provided put this forward as reasons why the wager is false. However, the wager is simply a construct. This construct does not make allowance for punishing Gods who punish more or less for different beliefs.

I think what these comments, yours included, are saying is that the wager differs from the set up that seems reasonable. Hence it is junk. No problem with saying the toy is junk if you regard it as unrepresentative of the truth as you believe it to be. However, that is different to saying that the toy is internally inconsistent. It is not. It just might not be suitable for the kind of cosmos that you/they had in mind. What do they expect? It's a toy. To solve that problem as you outline it requires calculus! Calculus probably was not even invented by the time he died or became unproductive. No wonder the wager looks oversimplified.

If I look like I am disagreeing on this point, it is because I am saying the logic is internally consistent. That is very different than saying it is actually useful for this exact situation as you and many others perceive it to be. It may be more useful in other specialized situations. For a theory which is debunked, it sure does some important stuff outside of the religious terrain.
 
. your choice of religion ultimately being the result of location, luck, period in time, ... and the fact that the religions expressly exclude each other

That, IMHO, is he crux of the entire concept of Theism, and the main factor that turned me completely off all mainstream Religions.
I cannot reconcile the claim that a God - by whatever name - is omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent, but at the same time requires us to "believe" in exactly the one creed, in spite of all other conflicting assurances and threats by competitors. As Heinlein put it, "That's not the way you run a universe."

That may leave a few religions, the gods of which do NOT demand adoration from everybody. The Greek and Roman gods, the Norse families, and I assume the full Indian contingent, don't threaten everyone with eternal damnation who hasn't heard of them and thus doesn't join in the rituals of worship.
 

Awesome

1. Why is an all-knowing God necessarily going to condemn you? An all-knowing God might know you are half-arsed and forgive you because He created you in the first place. Where is it written that a God is all knowing, or that He will necessarily condemn for any belief or lack of belief that you might have? The idea is that we are uncertain about what awaits. That uncertainty allows for the possibility of damnation which needs to be avoided.

Apart from the concept of damnation, salvation and the possible existence of a God and some conditions which say that you can possibly get in....nothing else is said. Every other thing which is added about all-knowing, vengeful...Gods is introduced externally from the setup.


2. Hehe. I always love that one. Actually, given the prospect of damnation is present for not fulfilling the conditions for entry you need to begin as soon as possible because you might die the next second. The adversity of the possible outcome completely overwhelms any concept of probability which is enshrined in the calculus. The risk of the penalty cannot be taken if a decision is available.

Oh well.


3. As above. Probability is not the issue. Possibility is the more relevant concept. This is not a probability equation. It is a possibility equation. Very different.


4. Yes. But if one of them, or one you make up, is possibly the true God then you have to play. If you don't and God exists or does not exist....per the wager.
 
Ok RY, I see your point that we take this as an isolated exercise in logic.

If we look at it as a toy, in which only one concept of god is conceived, and we have a binary choice, and we assume that we can logically choose to believe in something we didn't previously - then yes, Pascal is right.

Thus the problem between theory and practice:
- there are many gods
- they conflict
- it's not a binary choice
- there are degrees of punishment, reward, and conflicting rules in the various religions
- we can't logic ourselves into belief. I bold this last one, because even if we analyse it only from Pascal's artificial parameters, it doesn't make sense.

For this reason I had always assumed Pascal - an intelligent man - had made this comment tongue-in-cheek.
 
It's pretty ridiculous to believe that a God of Love (as all the religions try to make out theirs is) would ban anyone from entering his house simply because of lack of belief. This sort of thing is just a power play by religions to hold over their membership.

Another belief (besides atheism) that frees people from lifetime religious slavery is that we all have an afterlife and how far we advance in lives beyond depends on how well we live our lives past. You get back what you give out in other words. There is responsibility for your actions and you don't get all your sins excused because at the very end of your life when you have had all your evil fun you suddenly turn to God.

This makes more sense to me than either believing in a one and only life or alternatively eternal damnation or heavenly Love if one is a church member no matter how bad your sins are.
 
Have a good hard look at the world.

If god exists, he's an ********.

If I believed, it would be to curse the idiot out.

If there really is a benevolent god, then he's set the universe up in a way that any decent, caring, rational being would be an atheist. Only atheists go to heaven, because god doesn't want to spend eternity with suckups, liars and idiots.

I call it Weatsop's wager.
 

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