Online Brokers

vicb said:

I use etrade.
The problems seem to of eased a bit with their site.
Bonus with them is that once or twice a week and extra 40k or so appears in my account.
Now thats service!
Apart from that and the occassional 20c stock appearing on screen at $6.00,
all is good.
Now thats performence!

Click to expand...

You've sold me vicb!! I'll open an acc tomorrow- but with my luck they'll prob take the 40k OUT of my acc to make up the shortfall

Does anyone use E-Trade via Bendigo Bank? That's the way I was thinking of going.

Well like julles I have signed up with Phoenix.

What swayed me was their responsiveness to requests.
You may recall one of the show stoppers for me using them was that they could not download a full day's worth of tick data so I could load it into Metastock, well... a week later that functionality is added after a couple of emails to them.

NOW THAT'S SERVICE. Goodbye Sanford. You lost a good customer.

The washup in all my testing:
I should prefix this with my trading style as a lot of features I was after reflect the fact I trade options with a timeframe of anything from intraday to a couple of weeks. Real-time dynamic and short time frame data (5 min) are the norm for me. Longer term (EOD) traders may wonder what all the fuss is about I also only trade stocks/options on the ASX.

Bourse Data - 2nd prize. Good system.
Good bits:
1. Integration with the brokers. Nearly nearly swayed me.
2. Really good back (tick) data stretches for miles...
3. The concept of saving chart styles (similar to Metastock templates). Very easy to modify a chart by a simple drop down menu.
4. It remembers individual stock/option codes between platform restarts for each market depth window you have open.
Bad bits:
1. It only remembers the last colour/font change for a given class (ie. type) of window. Thus if you have three market depth windows open and give them three different colours (say blue for underlying stock, green for calls, red for puts) it only remembers the last colour (say red) between restarts of the platform. Similarly with fonts. Doh!
2. Chart printouts need work. They are ok but compared to Sanford or Phoenix they lack a certain finesse.
3. When you copy/paste the chart you get this ugly set of menus at the top of the image. Not a good look. No style.
4. Overall platform is not that intuitive. Sanford Pro had that down pat.
5. No "feel" for the market. The platform does not support fades or even colour changes when a price/volume changes. A watchlist just sort of sits there. It is dynamic but you have to stare at it to see prices moving. Again Sanford Pro had the fade feature. It gives you a good "feel" for the market.
6. No way to download a full month's worth of intraday data. You can only get a day at a time.
7. Forgets the From/To month setting with the options watch screen between platform restarts.
8. Only one linkage available between charts, market depths. Sanford and eSignal support multiple links. You also want to be able to NOT have some of your market depths linked (particularly if you trade options).

It is worth noting that the guys who wrote Bourse Data are the guys behind Phoenix AI. You can see the improvements in charting between the two packages. So lets do them next.

Phoenix AI - 1st Prize (for now - more on that later).
Good bits:
1. Charting - exceptional. You can see the improvement over Bourse Data.
2. Chart printouts - only package that worked without any tweaks, hassles or other issues. Impressive.
3. Fixed their tick data download issue (you could originally only download a small part (what was visible on the screen). The fact that they even bothered to reply gave them a plus. Double Plus Good (thanks George Orwell) that they did something about it. Way to go.
4. Support for red/green colour changes as a function of market price/volume changes. Gives you a feel for the market. No fading so not quite as good as Sanford Pro but better than Bourse Data.
Bad bits:
1. Forgets the stock/option codes and colours (but remembers the fonts) for individual watch screens between platform restarts. Backward step relative to Bourse Data. I don't know about you but I like to pick up the next day where I left off. Maybe I am strange in this respect.
2. What appears to be a back to front way of saving layouts for individual watch lists and market depths. Just a minor user interaction issue maybe...
3. Similar comments about only having a single link/sync between charts.
4. Colour changes to black/white in market depth windows on price/volume changes. Better to have red/green imho. No fading here either.
5. No simple way to get a month's worth of data in one hit. Same problem as Bourse Data.

eSignal - 3rd Prize
Good bits:
1. Charts that linked their cursors together. If you have the same stock displayed in multiple charts on different timeframes the cross hairs cursor will track across all the charts - very clever.
2. Data from a very wide range of exchanges around the world.
3. Comprehensive - every single thing you could ever want.
4. Market replay - you can replay the market (with acceleration) back to 10 days ago. Great for training.
Bad bits:
1. Expensive - by the time you add the ability to trade options you are looking at upwards of $A250 per month. Also you get billed in $US which is a risk I just don't need.
2. They are having trouble supplying market depth and options from the ASX. This is stupid. Again a risk I just don't need.

The others:
Bull Charts
Good:
1. very similar in look and feel to Metastock. Felt right at home.
2. has a training mode but no market replay.
Bad:
1. Their dynamic bits were not all that exciting. No feel for the market.
2. Expensive relative to other packages both in ongoing fees and upfront purchase.

Market Analyst 4 - not bad.
Good:
1. The charting is good.
Bad:
1. No DDE interface. This is a show stopper for me as I link my Metastock charts to the live feeds via DDEChartUpdater www.trading-tools.com
(excellent package by the way for Metastock Pro users). Most other packages I tested had DDE interfaces.

Reuters Quotecentre - full on
This would have been my fall back position had Phoenix not come to the party.
Good:
1. Full integration with Metastock Pro.
2. Extensive coverage of multiple exchanges.
Bad:
1. Expensive and billed in $US. About $A200/m @ 80c in the $US
2. Lack of any response from support. US company and you are a small fish.

WebIRESS - wooden spoon
Good:
1.
Bad:
1. Clunky interface.
2. Intraday charts are a joke. They only start at 10am. No historical intraday charting.
3. Chart printouts are as I have said before are woeful.
4. No adjustable anything.

My next post - the next generation...

I mentioned in my previous post that Phoenix AI had first prize for now.

Well I was lucky enough to have a preview of what could be the next generation in trading platforms. I can't say too much because the product is still under wraps and due for release in about 1-2 months.

What I can say is WOW!
To say it's interface is slick is an understatement.
On first glance it is like sitting in a Ferrari or Lamborgini.
You just know this thing is fast and it is.

The approach the developers have taken in being able to visualise the market is phenomenal. Fades taken to the next step. Market replay as you have never seen it before.

The best way to describe the interface's look is to compare it to a cross between the computer game SplinterCell and a stained glass window with fully adjustable and automagically resizing glass panes (if that makes sense with my attempt at photo montage below)



I am in no way doing their interface justice.
You have to see and feel it for yourself.

There first release is missing a few things particularly in the options area and DDE interface but that is coming from what the developers have said.

There could also be some really exciting "what if" features too.

Watch this space as they say...

Phoenix AI wasn't what I was looking for so after one day I cancelled my subscription. The crew there were very prompt and as Lakemac suggests if it's support your after Phoenix A1 is it.

Currently trialing Paritech Pulse, first day today. So far it looks to be the closest to Sanford, has everything including the ability to change font, live news feed, great charting, I'll be using it today to see if it offers a feel for the market.

Will let you know how I go.

This Next generation software you've mentioned Lakemac, well that's just teasing. Maybe I'll hold off on signing up for pulse till you disclose who what and where!

Sorry about the teasing julles, but until I can get a screen shot from them and a beta test copy it will have to remain a tease.

What exactly are you looking for julles?
I am intrigued as to what you didn't find in Phoenix.
I did test Pulse a while ago maybe I should go back and have another look.
I would be interested in your thoughts.

Ok, I didn't like the news ticker at the bottom, I didn't really like doing 3 clicks of the mouse to add a stock to the watch list. I just knew after a days use that I wouldn't be at my peak if I was continue to use that software. It's really personal preference and eye sight comes into it in my case. The platform has got to be easy to see :bloated:

Hello lakemac,

ive been looking at the phoenix ai software a while now but my trading account isnt that big for it to be much good to me, but plan on going to the seminar and 2 day gryphon learning course and get the phoenix ai software end of july august.

Do you think the new platform will be ready by end of July?

I havent used charts much and hopefully the 2 day course will give me a good understanding of how to use the charting software with phoenix ai.

Is the software very easy to use?

Thanks.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Hi new_trader1984,

I gather from your nick that you are new to trading.

You don't mention what sort of investment/trading time frame you are interested in. Typically one would identify someone as an investor if their time frame between typical buy/sell operations is greater than 12 months. Buy-and-hold investors are in this group along with most "fundamental" ie. non-chart investors.
The other group are often called traders - they have shorter (< 12 months) time frames and include both chartists (sometimes called technical analysis) and fundamentalists (no not terrorists) who base their decisions on company reports etc. There are several trader subgroups. The main ones are intraday (sometimes called day traders), short-term (typically trading derivatives or futures). I fall into the short-term category as my trading time frame is between one and 30 days.

Depending upon how you categorise yourself that will determine the kind of information you require. Phoenix AI and similar products are aimed more at traders than investors. Also depending upon your time frame the "service level" (daily or intraday data) required will determine how much it is going to cost you per month.

This next bit is going to be a bit heavy but bear with me, it might save you time and more importantly money.

One thing a lot of people don't understand is how to select the underlying frequency of their data feed. By that I mean the number of "samples" of price/volume information you need capture in order to obtain an accurate representation of the stock (or future's) change in price relative to the time frame you trade in. The reason for this is based in signal theory in particular what is called the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem. Basically you need a data feed which will give you AT LEAST two price/volume samples per time period that you trade in. I say at least because you really need many more price/volume samples than just two per time period.

Confused? Look at it this way, if you look at just end of day (EOD) prices, how many of these do you need to work out what the trend is? One is not enough, two well you have a start, 3 months worth and you are getting the picture. So if you intend to trade say stocks with only an EOD data feed you could realistically assume your shortest holding time between buy and sell would be in the vicinity of 3-6 weeks. Each week represents 5 samples of price/volume data times 3 weeks gives you 15 samples from which you would be able to get a good idea of the trend.

Let me illustrate this effect with some charts with 5, 15 and 50 samples on them. You tell me which one you could trade...







Most people would have trouble trading even the 50 sample one.

If you find you are drawn to shorter time frame trading (< 1 month ie. just 20 samples of EOD data) then I suggest you get a data feed that is more frequent than end of day - ie an intraday one).

Good service providers will have a range of plans ranging from end of day down to tick (ie. individual trades) level. You pay for what you get but on the other hand don't pay for what you don't need.

For my own trading style in options (time frame: 1 - 30 days) I capture 5 minute data. This gives me 3 data samples for every 15 minute bar and 12 data samples for every 60 minute bar. That gives me 6 samples per day which over 30 days gives me 180 price data points.



So first work out what time frame you want to trade then select the appropriate data feed frequency.

The selection of trading platforms is a matter of personal choice once you have determined if their platform can provide you with the right data feed.

One caveat on the WebIRESS platform - they say they have intraday charts but the caveat is those charts only display the data for that day. So if you need to use 1 hour charts for your trading you are only going to see 6 bars by the close of the market. If you can trade with only 6 bars (see my first chart) good luck to you.

Further refs:
Nyquist frequency and Nyquist rate
Bio on Claude Shannon

This is becoming a bit off topic (we were talking about online brokers not trading plaftorms - sorry people).

Those following this thread would have already gained some feel for the different platforms. A recap might be worthwhile:

IWL/Sanford Pro (the old version) - only knobbled versions available through NAB and E*Trade. These platforms were integrated with their respective brokers.

Bourse Data - trading platform with a backend link to either Commsec or Trader Dealer. Good historical intraday charts.

Phoenix AI - trading platform only - no backend link to a broker. Of course you are free to pick any broker with them and you only need their order execution part of their website. You use Phoenix for the dynamic stuff and place your order with whomever.

Market Analyst 4 - trading platform only.

eSignal - same but expensive.

Bull Charts - trading platform only. Approx $800 up front fee.

Metastock - charts only. No market depth interface. Can be coupled with realtime feeds. Expensive (> $1000) for the realtime version (Pro 10) but the advantage is you get to keep your data for long term storage in a form that can be imported exported easily. I use Metastock for both trading signals (in conjunction with a trading platform) and researching new trading ideas.

Incredible Charts - freebie for end of day data. This is the one I recommend for newbies.

As an aside to all of this, most people never really question what sort of trader/investor they are. Are they trading the right instrument ie. stock, index, future, option, let alone the right stock, commodity or currency that suits their trading style. And then add the element of time frame for their makeup and you understand why a lot of people are unable to feel comfortable with their investing/trading. Should you even be a trader? All good questions few people ask.

As to doing courses - you will find books are a better starting point. That and finding a mentor. Someone who has been there before you. I did that about 2 years ago and it changed my trading dramatically.

Another thing, whilst trading appears easy, it is not. Most people underestimate the amount of time and training (psychological as well as technical) that it takes to make money in this game.

I forgot to address your question of ease of use.

With the exception of the old Sanford Pro and maybe Bull Charts, none of the packages I evaluated were easy or intuitive to use.

I suspect even Bull Charts appeared to be easy to use as it is very similar to Metastock's interface. So I can't really tell on that front.

This new product under wraps at the moment is going to be interesting to try out for its ease of use. The quick demo I had was too short to really see if I could set it up and use it easily.

Although I have settled for Phoenix AI for now, I am still looking for a better more intuitive interface. Again it is personal preference. Most companies provide some sort of free or money back trials. I suggest you give each of them a spin.

However, no trading platform is going to make you a profitable trader. That comes from within. One other thing I have learnt - there is no subsitute for live ie. real money on the line trading. Paper trading is good to get started with but it is only when real money is involved will you really understand the skills required for trading.

Hi lakemac,

Thanks for your replies,

Ive been investing in shares about 3 years now mostly long term with a small amount which ive been increasing. From July August i will have a decent sized amount to trade and invest with, i plan on investing into a couple of companies that ive watched and researched about for longer period for atleast 12 months. With the rest of the money i want to start trading using charts, ive read a bit about charts and got the infochoice charting software which updates with delayed 20 minute time frames. I am aiming for trading that will last between 1 and 30 days and was looking at the phoenix ai software for live data instead of pressing the refresh button on my broker website to see changes in price. The webpage that shows all the features of phoenix ai looks like lots of it could be very helpful and some parts i wouldnt use since at the moment only trading investing in asx stocks, havent looked at shorting or options.

Ive spoken to the people that run phoenix ai and they said that the charts update on the screen after each trade goes through so wont have to refresh the page to see the new changes, also the announcements once recived will come up on the screen too which would be good. The scanner software i was told is free for first 12 months thats the inquisitor which can help find stocks that might be good for trades after you put in the filters which can help narrow the selection choices. Currently every weekend i go through all the different stocks mostly mining and then look at announcements and look at future plans for the company to make my investments which is very time consuming, and hopefully this scanning software may help with atleast giving a smaller selection of stocks to look at.

I have also been looking at trader dealer for an online brokerage company for short term trades, they are very cheap for large trades compared to other online companies that are only cheap for upto $10,000 once over works out to be a lot more than 33 dollars.

Can people have 2 online trading accounts?

The 2 day course that i am looking at doing is meant to give you a good idea of the charting and how to use the phoenix ai software, Thought it might be worth it since can learn more from being shown how to do things then reading books, but i have been reading charting books but only have a basic understanding of charting at the moment. They are meant to show you the early warning system that they have which might help with entry and exit points also how to use the smart money indicator that you get using phoenix ai.

Have you used the neilsen supply demand indicator and smart money indicator? Do you find them helpful?

Any advice you could offer when using the phoenix ai software?

If you buy the software can you install it on more than one computer and have the live data feed appearing on the screen on both computers or is the software limited to one computer?

Sorry that might sound like a silly question but thought to ask.

Thanks.

Hi again new_trader1984,

Sounds like the Phoenix AI platform would be worthwhile for you.

Trader Dealer was one of the brokers I was looking at using myself.
You may also want to look at Morrison Securities but be aware that they charge you for each day that a trade sits in their order queue.

Given your preference for formal training over reading books then courses are probably a better idea.

You can have as many trading (ie broker) accounts as you like.
I currently have two - Sanford, Commsec.

Each broker will issue you with a different HIN (Holder Identification Number) which identifies only those holdings you have with that broker. The HIN is part of the ASX CHESS system. Each broker effectively is a CHESS "sponsor" who holds your stocks etc in trust for you. You can transfer stocks from one HIN to another although this often incurs broker fees. You can't move your HIN from one broker to another unless you move ALL the stocks you have associated with that HIN to the other broker, again usually for a fee.

As to indicators - price, volume, momentum, moving average, sometimes RSI and MACD. Which indicators you use depend upon your trading "edge" or style. The key is to find a trading "edge" that gives you a better than 65% probability of a successful trade. Why 65% - slippage, brokerage, data feed and computer/comms costs all add up.

With the Phoenix AI software - just play with it. You will eventually work out some of its more quirky features. The worst bit is layouts for market depth. You open a new market depth, initially save its layout as say "stockmd", modify the layout as you like then hit save again. I found it a bit confusing at first. If you want several types of market depth Phoenix will only remember the last saved layout in its workspace. To have two different market depth layouts you need to have saved two different layouts then when you reopen the workspace you right click on the market depth that it has restored to the last layout, select open existing layout then select the one you want.

I might do a bit of a tutorial in another thread for it later.

Phoenix AI doesn't charge you an upfront fee for their software, so you can load it onto as many backup computers as you like (I have two identical laptops that get sync'd once a month using Microsoft's Automated System Recovery (ASR) backup software included in XP Pro. I backup daily using ASR so in the event of a failure I swap laptops then run ASR to bring the second one up to an exact replica of the first). You can only connect to the data feed one at a time though. This I have found to be a bit of an issue when you use the NextG service.

What happens is that I get drop outs when I am travelling on the train between Central and Newcastle. When I reconnect through NextG after a dropout, the Phoenix AI servers still think I am connected and refuse to authenticate me. It only takes about 30 sec to a minute before they do but it is still a pain.

(On the subject of NextG - I love it. Still gives me a buzz being able to sit on the train, power up the laptop and get a fast (>1MB/s) internet connection most of the time - ok tunnels, parts of the Hawksbury and bits between Epping and Hornsby are still black holes (literally LOL) but besides that it is great for anyone on the go.)

Thanks lakemac,

Appreciate all the advice you have given.

I thought the phoenix ai software cost $395 but by doing the 2 day course got it for free?

Thanks.

beginner's question ahead..

just wondering. Considering there are so many different brokers providing so many different type of services with their own pros n cons, issit possible if we open two different online account; one with lower cost and another one with better services (eg: research/news/charts?) and only trade with the less expensive account while making full use of the one with the better services??

Yes Debaron, you can play it this way.
My partner has a full service broker and an online broker. We review information from the full service broker and trade online or may place longer term trades or invest with her full service broker.

I am looking for a new broker for ETO's. Does anyone have any views on Options Express ?

dubiousinfo said:

I am looking for a new broker for ETO's. Does anyone have any views on Options Express ?

Click to expand...

DI, I've found them to be OK. One of their good features is that you can place two legged orders online (as a combo) and I don't know of any other options broker that has that facility with online trading. Before OX came along, these types of orders would have to be phoned in - then another phone call if you want to adjust it, etc, etc. Unfortunately, a spread of two is all you can enter - no three/four legged creatures like butterflies or condors can be entered online - the order boxes are there, but only work with the US.

They don't have much in the way of charts for the Oz market. Plenty of tools are available for the US, but sadly lacking for Oz. No streaming data either.

I've had ongoing problems with Berndale not getting the fees right, so I keep a close eye on that and quick to let them know! They have always refunded their overcharges, but just a nuisance that they can't get it right to begin with.

I'm planning to check out IB for a bit more info - it sounds interesting.

Let me know if you have any other questions!

I am about to open an account with an online broker to buy and sell shares for the SMSF that I am starting. I was wondering whether some online brokers stand out as better than others. I will be buying and selling equities only and will not be a high volume trader. The ones I am considering at the moment are: E*trade; Commsec and Bell direct.

My post immediately above was moved from a new thread to this one and I have no problem with that. But I had read through the posts on this thread and did not really find the advice that I was looking for. In part it was dated, but more importantly I was hoping to canvas opinions that related specifically to experiences people had had - both positive and negative - in buying and selling equities with some of the main online brokers and advice on what really many would see as entry level or basic investing options.
Thanks in anticipation