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The one major difference between you and I is, I actually understand that I really don't have enough information to know what is and what isn't achievable, yet you rant and rave about what is and isn't achievable with less information than I have.You just did
They are the numbers the maths and timeline just dont work, adding to the whole mess new transmissions lines will need to be also built for some of Duttons Nuc stations (another lazy $100 bil?)
At some point nuclear will be a good fit as already said (you missed that bit... its those rose coloured Coalitions glasses should have gone to spec savers) unfortunately Duttons plan is as you say ludicrous.
Well a lot of the problem is, there is a lot of white noise being generated.I heard AEMO complaining today that there are not enough renewables being added to the system.
They are 'experts' so hopefully Jacquie and other seat warmers listen to them.
Ah Sir Rumpole, you wouldn't by any chance be a part of this movement would you???I'll have one in my backyard.
I only like things in my backyard that are of benefit to me. If I can plug into a small nuclear reactor, fine, slums on the other hand...Ah Sir Rumpole, you wouldn't by any chance be a part of this movement would you???
View attachment 179328
Mick
The one major difference between you and I is, I actually understand that I really don't have enough information to know what is and what isn't achievable, yet you rant and rave about what is and isn't achievable with less information than I have.
I say a technical plan should be developed by experts in the field, ASAP and that plan should be followed and all sources of energy should be considered in the mix.
You say nuclear doesn't work and shouldn't even be considered, when in reality you know about as much about nuclear power generation and electrical system analysis, as my ar$e know about duck shooting.
Also you could put 99.9% of the politicians in that same basket, let's get Jacqui Lambie's thoughts on the suitability of nuclear power as regard system stability and dynamic response, maybe Sarah Ferguson could run it on the 7.30 report.
I would debate something if you actually put up something to debate, you can't even explain labor's plan let alone Duttons FFSRubbish you have failed to debate the points I put up instead ramble about me and my beliefs both of which you know nothing of.
Yes well I definitely knw you have never worked in a modern thermal Power station, that is painfully obvious.I am starting to wonder if you have ever seen a power station.
You haven't put up any numbers yet, other than anecdotal nonsense.The numbers reflect assertions not from Labor or political talking points but from a wide range of analysis.
How can the Nuclear power stations footprint be known, when Dutton hasn't even said what size units would be used, you really have no idea do you.Nuclear power stations operational capabilities are widely available as are the costs, footprint requirements reflecting station sizing.
That doesn't mean new bays can't be added to the switchyard, Kwinana has three switchyards and the original station still standing, plus 4 gas turbines have been added and now a Big grid connected battery all feeding the same original switchyards.In terms of reticulation again the numbers are in the public domain the site for Port Augusta supposingly using existing HV power lines fails simply because renewables already do.
Thank god for that.I have never said nuclear doesn't work however current technology is seriously problematic in Australia's current power generation environment (you would be a zombie not to know that) and certainly not a remedy for net zero or lower power prices (again zombie world) but I do I agreed with Smurf build one but would expect it to a very expensive white elephant after technology advances.
Duttons nuclear plan is continuing political sabotage of renewables and time wasting exercise nothing more.
My last comment on the matter.
Upper reservoir, Tantangara, has an active storage capacity of 238.768 GL.as I have no in depth knowledge of Snowy 2.0 and wasn't actually going to post it due to the anger surrounding the debate.
But if we are going to keep investigating the issue, here goes.
Absolutely. Looking at the two sides:The problem that I think is becoming obvious to me in this debate, is really an ideological one
Does that mean it is government owned and should continue to be?Transmission we'll do as a "nation building project" funded by taxes so that too is out of the calculations.
I personally think the big problem with it all is, as usual the politicians can't get over themselves, we're right you're wrong.It's pretty political when we have Labor criticising "Soviet style" nuclear reactor ownership, then putting $billions of public money into transmission lines.
One is spending money on nation building infrastructure and the other is spending money on nation building infrastructure, it just depends which tribe you belong to.It's pretty political when we have Labor criticising "Soviet style" nuclear reactor ownership, then putting $billions of public money into transmission lines.
Why Peter Dutton has turned energy debate on its head
Labor’s hysterical over-reaction to the Coalition’s commitment to nuclear power betrays the weakness of its arguments. It insists that nuclear power is impractical, too expensive, potentially dangerous and would take too long.
Yet how can it be perfectly practical to have nuclear power at sea but not on land; economic for at least 33 other countries to have nuclear power but not for us; not dangerous to have a medical nuclear reactor a stone’s throw from houses at Lucas Heights in Sydney but dangerous to have more; and too time consuming to have nuclear plants that will take a decade to build when the Snowy 2.0 pumped hydro plant will take at least that long to become operational?
For all the government’s hype about renewable wind and solar power, and its expansion from almost nothing two decades back to about 30 per cent of total electricity generation now, reliable and inexpensive coal-fired power still provides almost 60 per cent of our total electricity.
Far from producing cheaper power, as the government claims, cutting coal-fired power back to under 10 per cent of the total in just six years will create massive disruption, vast additional costs and widespread blackouts.
Peter Dutton’s proposed seven nuclear reactors won’t solve the whole power problem that decades of running the power system to reduce emissions rather than produce affordable and reliable power has created.
Still, because nuclear is the only currently proven means of providing zero-emissions baseload power in the long term, they’re a necessary part of getting to net zero and keeping the lights on.
If the government’s claims are correct – that renewable energy is the cheapest form of power – why is it still being subsidised through the renewable energy certificates that power generators are forced to buy, to the tune of well over $3bn a year? And if weather-dependent renewable power really can keep the lights on, why are the Victorian and NSW Labor governments now paying millions in subsidies to keep coal-fired power stations open?
And if the system really is generating the cheapest possible power, why have both federal and state Labor governments started to directly subsidise the power bills of households? Subsidising renewable power to incentivise its take-up, then subsidising coal-fired power to keep the lights on and finally subsidising households to make electricity affordable is hardly the sign of a rational energy system.
Yet affordable and reliable electricity is the absolute foundation of modern life, needed for everything from heating and lighting to charging our phones, paying our bills and, increasingly, keeping our cars on the road.
As a recent Menzies Research Centre study concluded, after considering power costs in various countries, some with a preponderance of nuclear power and others with more renewables, “systems with a larger portion of stable base-load power in their overall electricity mix tend to deliver cheaper power than those that are more heavily reliant on intermittent and peaking power”.
Anthony Albanese wants the next election to be a referendum on nuclear power now that Peter Dutton has so clearly committed to it. In fact, now that the opposition has committed to a very different way to get to net-zero emissions by 2050, via emissions-free nuclear power, the next election will finally be the contest over energy policy that both sides have been avoiding for a decade and one that the Prime Minister could easily lose.
An early sign of problems ahead is the PM’s insistence that Dutton cannot cost the opposition’s nuclear policy even though, two years into government and with all the resources of government at his disposal, the Prime Minister still can’t put a cost on his own green energy transition.
We do know that, far from cutting power bills by $275 per household per year as the government promised at the election, power bills have since increased by up to $1000. We do know that Energy Minister Chris Bowen thinks that moving from a power supply dependent upon fossil fuels to one almost entirely based on renewable energy is the biggest transition since the Industrial Revolution and that it will require the erection of 40 large wind turbines every single month and the installation of 22,000 solar panels every single day for eight years, plus up to 28,000km of new transmission lines – because that’s what Bowen has told us would be needed.
We also know that the cost of the extra transmission lines alone will be at least $80bn because that’s what Labor said pre-election. And we further know that the green energy transition is way behind schedule because that’s what the energy market operator says, plus without getting more gas urgently into the system blackouts could be widespread by the end of the year. Because it doesn’t matter how much wind and solar power is installed, there has to be back-up power to keep the lights on when weather fails us.
By far the most efficient way to “firm” renewables is via gas “peaker” plants, yet the extra gas needed to make the green transition work is exactly what the climate zealots insist on keeping in the ground.
At about $3m each, the nearly 4000 two-megawatt wind turbines that the government says we need would cost about $12bn (and that’s without any construction infrastructure). And at about $8000 each, the four million new nine kilowatt home solar systems that the government says we need would cost about $32bn. So that’s $44bn to provide a potential maximum of 54,000 megawatts of power that, due to intermittency, would only produce, on average, about 18,000 megawatts of power at any one time.
Given that this doesn’t include firming and doesn’t include the necessary extra transmission lines, just on these back-of-the-envelope calculations, even the $56bn that the CSIRO says it would cost to install the seven, thousand megawatt 24/7 nuclear power plants that Peter Dutton is backing doesn’t look too bad.
In fact, Dutton’s position is much stronger than that, with the recent Net Zero Australia study involving three universities and headed by a former chief scientist putting the cost of getting to net zero, without nuclear, given all the firming and unavoidable overbuild of infrastructure needed, at an eye-watering $1.5 trillion by 2030.
While the CSIRO study, which Labor endlessly cites, claims that firmed renewables are the cheapest form of power, that’s based on dubious assumptions about the long-term price of gas and coal, faulty assumptions about the life expectancy of nuclear power plants, ignoring the recycling costs of spent panels and turbines, and a failure to include in its calculations the cost of home solar because it’s initially paid for by the householder. As shown by the now near-daily headlines about potential blackouts and heavy industries (and jobs) moving offshore where electricity and gas is cheaper, energy policy in this country has become a slow-motion trainwreck.
Finally, Dutton has injected a note of realism into the debate by offering an alternative that reduces emissions without jeopardising security of supply. The government’s response – asinine cartoons about deformed fish and the rushed appointment of a turncoat Liberal to a supposedly independent climate authority – shows just how debauched our public debate has become. Because the government can’t demand Dutton’s costing without also producing its own we might finally be able to make some energy decisions based on rational judgment rather than green religion.
Written by Peta Credlin, just thought I would mention that.Some interesting questions that I'd like to hear an answer on.
Labor’s hysterical over-reaction to the Coalition’s commitment to nuclear power betrays the weakness of its arguments. It insists that nuclear power is impractical, too expensive, potentially dangerous and would take too long.Yet how can it be perfectly practical to have nuclear power at sea but not on land; economic for at least 33 other countries to have nuclear power but not for us; not dangerous to have a medical nuclear reactor a stone’s throw from houses at Lucas Heights in Sydney but dangerous to have more; and too time consuming to have nuclear plants that will take a decade to build when the Snowy 2.0 pumped hydro plant will take at least that long to become operational?If the government’s claims are correct – that renewable energy is the cheapest form of power – why is it still being subsidised through the renewable energy certificates that power generators are forced to buy, to the tune of well over $3bn a year? And if weather-dependent renewable power really can keep the lights on, why are the Victorian and NSW Labor governments now paying millions in subsidies to keep coal-fired power stations open?And if the system really is generating the cheapest possible power, why have both federal and state Labor governments started to directly subsidise the power bills of households?
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