NBN Rollout Scrapped

Garpal Gumnut · 24 March 2013

NBNMyths said:
Dr Gregory is a little bit "out there". While I agree with one of his points (that it would be a good idea for NBN Co to have their own workforce, at least in part), he has also suggested (seriously) that the Army be conscripted into performing the rollout! http://theconversation.com/the-army-should-rescue-the-nbn-12387

In that article, he criticised NBN Co on the basis of numerous factual errors (eg that they only had one fibre supplier and assorted statistical errors). I'm a little surprised by this. Given his position I would have thought he'd be more familiar with the project. He is also an advocate of NBN Co extending their fibre footprint beyond 93% to (essentially) everyone, and for them to abandon their "cheap" PON system for a much more expensive "point-to-point" fibre system.

Thus, I don't think anti-NBN people should be holding him up as someone to listen to!

The NBN is beginning to resemble pink batts and the great COLA and computer rollout to schools. Expensive, poorly planned and behind budget, progress and estimates.

As for a "Senior lecturer's" opinion on what is considered suitable duties for the Australian Army, I would guess that he will never make a professor in whatever backwater of higher education, masquerading as a university, in which he dozes.

medicowallet said:
Having lived up in GGs territory for quite a few years, I must say that conscripting the army is a FANTASTIC idea.

1. It would help skill them up for the real world when they "retire"
2. It would make them productive - ie, what do AJs do for 40 hours per week?
3. It would improve the image of the Army in the community and make them more visible.

and most importantly

4. it might mean it can be delivered somewhere within a decade of its proposed timeframe, and within $20 billion of its proposed cost.

Yes, it could make this very very poor project, slightly better.

MW

PS NBNMyths... how goes the rollout wrt timing and budget. I assume you think everything is ok with your puppy?

medicowallet I do hope your response is tongue in cheek.

Soldiers are trained to defend our country and attack enemies, that is kill.

I fail to see how digging ditches on the whim of a muppet like Senator Conroy would contribute to defence readiness.

gg

Garpal Gumnut · 28 March 2013

My contacts tell me the NBN is an absolutely unsustainable business model.

I note The Australian has reported on a further threat from wireless.

THE company building the National Broadband Network, already under fire for running late, has admitted it faces rising competition from wireless networks offering improved services and prices.

NBN Co has conceded its own modelling finds that if it increases prices by the maximum it expects to be allowed by regulators, the number of wireless-only premises will rise to 30 per cent by 2039-40 because affordability is such a significant factor for households.

gg

medicowallet · 28 March 2013

Garpal Gumnut said:
medicowallet I do hope your response is tongue in cheek.

Soldiers are trained to defend our country and attack enemies, that is kill.

I fail to see how digging ditches on the whim of a muppet like Senator Conroy would contribute to defence readiness.

gg

No, only partially.

Skilling beyond the army has always been a massive issue.

Also, back in the day, I thought digging a trench was a particularly useful skill

MW

medicowallet · 28 March 2013

NBNMyths said:
The 3-month delay in the June 2013 figures is disappointing, but I suppose to be expected given what they've been saying for the last couple of months about Syntheo's areas of WA, SA and NT.

NSW, QLD, ACT, VIC and TAS are all on track AFAIK, and NBN Co have now relieved Syntheo of NT and are going to finish it themselves.

They have also added two more contractors in NSW and VIC in the last few months, being Visionstream and Downer EDI, again on-budget. I believe they are also looking at adding a second contractor in SA, being the power company which rolled out the Willunga trial site.

Whole project is still on budget, AFAIK.

3 more months ? wasn't it june 2012 for 317000? I mean I was referring to the initial targets.

On budget to date possibly, but not per unit connection, ie when the rollout blows out, so does the cost... and that doesn't include all that extra coffee etc.

MW

noco · 28 March 2013

If the NBN is going to have severe competition from wireless, it looks like the Green/Labor Governments scheme could become a massive "WHITE ELEPHANT".

Another Labor failure!!!!!!!!But then again, we are all starting to realize that is in their DNA......Failure after failure.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...as-threat-to-nbn/story-fn59niix-1226608057785

Garpal Gumnut · 28 March 2013

medicowallet said:
No, only partially.

Skilling beyond the army has always been a massive issue.

Also, back in the day, I thought digging a trench was a particularly useful skill

MW

That is a particularly insulting comment. One could equally say that hospital doctors sitting on their arses waiting for operations to start might be more usefully employed digging ditches for the NBN.

Your experience of soldiering must be confined to toytown.

gg

NBNMyths · 28 March 2013

Garpal Gumnut said:
My contacts tell me the NBN is an absolutely unsustainable business model.

I note The Australian has reported on a further threat from wireless.

gg

Are they the same contacts that told you it was going to be scrapped?

The only thing exposed in The Australian is their own incompetence.

1. It's highly unlikely that the NBN will increase their pricing at all, let alone by the maximum they are permitted to do.

2. If affordability is the primary issue, then wireless is not for you:

50GB on the NBN $35/month (including data, phone and with 10c calls)
50GB on Telstra 4G wireless: $360/month (data only, no phone service)
50GB on Optus 4G wireless: $675/month (data only, no phone service)

medicowallet · 28 March 2013

Garpal Gumnut said:
That is a particularly insulting comment. One could equally say that hospital doctors sitting on their arses waiting for operations to start might be more usefully employed digging ditches for the NBN.

Your experience of soldiering must be confined to toytown.

gg

Absolutely not insulting at all.

Anything that upskills army personnel, and note that this would be not about "digging ditches" but by skilling in trades such as electrical, communications, engineering, mechanical etc to enable rollouts, and to involve the army by improving their presence in the community, as well as training them for deployment and rebuilding exercises.

How this can be seen as insulting is beyond me..

btw, it would only be a small group of AJs at a time to be rotated through assistance.

I am surprised that someone who lives in an army town would be against that... I might call up my old mate who used to be in charge at Lavarack, and see what he thinks. I am aware that ther is a massive problem with unskilled army personnel after they retire early.

Oh, and btw, I know that there are a lot of inefficiencies in medicine, but in the private sector, no work = no pay, and in the public sector the pay is so poor that it would almost be assumed that the workload reflects it, also quite a few of the inefficiencies in the public sector are to do with poor systems, funding, and the need to train people.

MW

PS I think I finally found out your occupation GG.

Garpal Gumnut · 28 March 2013

medicowallet said:
Absolutely not insulting at all.

Anything that upskills army personnel, and note that this would be not about "digging ditches" but by skilling in trades such as electrical, communications, engineering, mechanical etc to enable rollouts, and to involve the army by improving their presence in the community, as well as training them for deployment and rebuilding exercises.

How this can be seen as insulting is beyond me..

btw, it would only be a small group of AJs at a time to be rotated through assistance.

I am surprised that someone who lives in an army town would be against that... I might call up my old mate who used to be in charge at Lavarack, and see what he thinks. I am aware that ther is a massive problem with unskilled army personnel after they retire early.

Oh, and btw, I know that there are a lot of inefficiencies in medicine, but in the private sector, no work = no pay, and in the public sector the pay is so poor that it would almost be assumed that the workload reflects it, also quite a few of the inefficiencies in the public sector are to do with poor systems, funding, and the need to train people.

MW

I believe from your previous posts that you purport to be a doctor of some sort.

Soldiering has a far greater history than doctoring.

Your blase statements about soldiers indicate a sense of entitlement from the letters after your name, to decide how other worthwhile professions and trades should be used in the body politic.

I am aware of many medical offerings in Australia that would be better employed digging ditches.

You have an incomplete understanding of the purpose of defence in the Australian context.

While I may be wrong, I would guess you are a pom, or some such, as your sentiments are common in poorer declining nations such as the UK, or Cyprus.

The ADF is not for digging ditches for the NBN.

gg

medicowallet · 28 March 2013

Garpal Gumnut said:
I believe from your previous posts that you purport to be a doctor of some sort.

Soldiering has a far greater history than doctoring.

Your blase statements about soldiers indicate a sense of entitlement from the letters after your name, to decide how other worthwhile professions and trades should be used in the body politic.

I am aware of many medical offerings in Australia that would be better employed digging ditches.

You have an incomplete understanding of the purpose of defence in the Australian context.

While I may be wrong, I would guess you are a pom, or some such, as your sentiments are common in poorer declining nations such as the UK, or Cyprus.

The ADF is not for digging ditches for the NBN.

gg

If you want to condemn Army personnel to a life of struggle seeking employment after retiring from the army, then so be it.

I am offering a suggestion to assist the country, a noble enterprise, and you wish to keep the status quo. See, GG, you might be surprised as to what I know of the defence forces.

Perhaps I was involved somehow in the medical treatment of soldiers in Townsville? Perhaps at Lavarack barracks? Perhaps even with you?

Who knows what some people know, and others do not over the anonymity of the internet. Who also knows which ones prance about using false personas.

MW.

Garpal Gumnut · 28 March 2013

medicowallet said:
If you want to condemn Army personnel to a life of struggle seeking employment after retiring from the army, then so be it.

I am offering a suggestion to assist the country, a noble enterprise, and you wish to keep the status quo. See, GG, you might be surprised as to what I know of the defence forces.

Perhaps I was involved somehow in the medical treatment of soldiers in Townsville? Perhaps at Lavarack barracks? Perhaps even with you?

Who knows what some people know, and others do not over the anonymity of the internet. Who also knows which ones prance about using false personas.

MW

You fail to answer the question.

I see no employment problems with ADF personnel after service.

Post some stats and I will be more sympathetic to your stance.

The NBN is a civilian exercise, lauded by some, not by others.

Soldiering is soldiering.

You were at Lavarack?

gg

awg · 31 March 2013

Smurf1976 said:
In other words, yet another example of why government should do things with an in-house workforce rather than spending more money for a worse result using contractors.

Blind Freddy could have seen a debacle coming as soon as they knew how the NBN was to be built - the outcome they're getting now is the exact same one that's happened in practically every other government project involving similar works. And it's the exact same situation, underground cabling, that I used to get paid a ridiculous amount (as a public servant at the time) to fix following contractor stuff ups.

Just wait until the quality of workmanship problems start to emerge. Just wait.... (been there, seen this game before - there will be problems especially with the method they are using to remove the old fibro pits. Also some depth of burial issues too, plus they haven't allowed enough in their estimates to cover unavoidable damage to other services in CBD areas particularly traffic lights which you can't avoid damaging under some circumstances due to the way the sensors are installed. Also there will most likely be a few compaction density issues simply because contractors on big projects like this tend not to disclose the full extent of their works to road owners, leaving them (ie councils and therefore ratepayers) to foot the bill some years later when it sinks).

On a positive note, it's a great way for some to grab hold of some money. That's your money and mine they're grabbing of course.

my very good contact with 30 yrs experience in telco civil works, now overseeing NBN contract work bemoans the lack of skilled contractors, and initial estimates provided by much less experienced NBN employees of how long work would take.

I have done this type of work and just cant see that more than a low % of projected residences will end up full-speed connected. When you start grubbing trenches in the ground, the problems and inefficiencies are an eye-opener

I will warrant that I miss out..wont it start winding down into a different beast from September ?

Garpal Gumnut · 31 March 2013

Well NBNMyths, the silliness and waste of public capital has now been exposed in the Senate.

The gut feeling of los dos muppetos, Conroy and Rudd, in spending the wealth of Australia on a hare brained scheme has been exposed.

It is so easy for those who have never worked in a real job, to have a bright idea, less common for them to be in a position to put it in to practice without any skin in the game.

Digging ditches, which I have done, is not easy.

Doing it in to each and every hamlet and house in a country as vast as Australia is a monumental task.

The NBN will go down in history as the Titanic did.

gg

Smurf1976 · 31 March 2013

awg said:
my very good contact with 30 yrs experience in telco civil works, now overseeing NBN contract work bemoans the lack of skilled contractors, and initial estimates provided by much less experienced NBN employees of how long work would take.

I have done this type of work and just cant see that more than a low % of projected residences will end up full-speed connected. When you start grubbing trenches in the ground, the problems and inefficiencies are an eye-opener

Been there, done my fair share of conduit laying. Dig trench, find this, that and every other obstacle whilst doing so. Lay conduit, apply glue, give the other end a whack with the mallet. Rinse and repeat. All good if you're in the middle of nowhere and it's soil you're digging in but not much fun in any place that has existing water, comms, power, sewer, storm water to consider. End result is that it usually takes longer than most think it ought to simply because there's usually something in the way that wasn't expected.

I'm not sure how common they are elsewhere, but here in Tas there are old abandoned town gas (coal gas) pipes in parts of Hobart and Launceston. Those in Hobart are an outright hazard (those in Launceston seem to be much safer, probably because they were still in use until 1997 and the gas going into them was much better quality) which can put you in hospital if you're not careful. Disused since 1978, breaking them (which is pretty easy given how fragile they are - incredibly so in some cases) releases some pretty nasty substances including cyanide (Workplace Standards have done tests and confirmed that cyanide is present - no idea how that came to be but it's in the pipes). I'm not sure how common these are elsewhere in Australia, but they're a definite hazard for anyone installing new pipes, cables etc in city areas. Thank heavens I don't mess about with them anymore.

All that said, I'd assume the NBN will largely be using existing conduit for the NBN, at least where it is plastic (of any type) and presumably they'd also re-use old GWI pipe as long as it isn't blocked. As for the rest, well I'm guessing they won't re-use AC (asbestos cement) pipe and I note that they are removing old AC pits too (though I'm unconvinced as to how safely this is being done - maybe it is but having done similar work suffice to say I doubt it). Not sure about old terracotta pipes - they're a damn nuisance to anyone installing other services (power, water, gas, traffic lights, whatever) that's for sure but at least they're not unsafe as such and there's an awful lot of them.

NBNMyths · 31 March 2013

Garpal Gumnut said:
Well NBNMyths, the silliness and waste of public capital has now been exposed in the Senate.

The gut feeling of los dos muppetos, Conroy and Rudd, in spending the wealth of Australia on a hare brained scheme has been exposed.

It is so easy for those who have never worked in a real job, to have a bright idea, less common for them to be in a position to put it in to practice without any skin in the game.

Digging ditches, which I have done, is not easy.

Doing it in to each and every hamlet and house in a country as vast as Australia is a monumental task.

The NBN will go down in history as the Titanic did.

gg

Yes, it would be a monumental task, if it were actually happening.

But it isn't. The NBN uses existing Telstra conduits where they exist, so no digging there. In the 25% of premises where the existing Telstra lines are overhead, then so will the NBN be. So no digging there. Then there's the 7% of premises where the NBN will be wireless or satellite, so no digging there either.

Then for those areas where they do need to install a new conduit (Maybe 30% of premises), they are using new technologies like microtrenching. Very little manual labour or surface damage involved:

As a final point, surely not even you would believe that the current copper lines will last and/or be useful forever? Meaning that at some stage those lines will have to be replaced. And the cost of that replacement, either using the existing infrastructure or by digging a new trench, will be borne by the network customers, whether that network is owned by the NBN, Telstra or some other company.

Calliope · 31 March 2013

NBNMyths said:
But it isn't. The NBN uses existing Telstra conduits where they exist, so no digging there

Are you saying that where Telstra FAC conduits and cable pits are still in use, that your NBN Co. will continue to use them?

NBNMyths · 31 March 2013

Calliope said:
Are you saying that where Telstra FAC conduits and cable pits are still in use, that your NBN Co. will continue to use them?

If by FAC you mean asbestos-containing, then yes (sort of).

Telstra are required to remediate or replace their ducts so NBN Co can use them. As far as I'm aware, this consists of replacing any asbestos-containing pits, and lining asbestos-containing ducts.

Telstra have budgeted around $2bn for the task of making their pit&pipe ready for the NBN: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-for-nbn-rollout/story-fn59niix-1226080208516
http://www.afr.com/p/business/companies/telstra_hit_by_bn_nbn_deal_costs_4ZzSQmy2g5kNCwhFpMYkGN

Garpal Gumnut · 31 March 2013

NBNMyths said:
If by FAC you mean asbestos-containing, then yes (sort of).

Telstra are required to remediate or replace their ducts so NBN Co can use them. As far as I'm aware, this consists of replacing any asbestos-containing pits, and lining asbestos-containing ducts.

Telstra have budgeted around $2bn for the task of making their pit&pipe ready for the NBN: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-for-nbn-rollout/story-fn59niix-1226080208516
http://www.afr.com/p/business/companies/telstra_hit_by_bn_nbn_deal_costs_4ZzSQmy2g5kNCwhFpMYkGN

You just don't get it mate.

What a load of crock.

A scheme was announced, and as we go, we find the problems and throw more money at it.

If the NBN were a listed company it would be broke by now.

gg

Calliope · 31 March 2013

NBNMyths said:
If by FAC you mean asbestos-containing, then yes (sort of).

Telstra are required to remediate or replace their ducts so NBN Co can use them. As far as I'm aware, this consists of replacing any asbestos-containing pits, and lining asbestos-containing ducts.

FAC is Fibro Asbestos Cement, or it was when I was with Telstra. You say "as far as I am aware". A strange admission for a guy who has assumed the role of NBN mouthpiece on this forum.

Garpal Gumnut · 31 March 2013

Garpal Gumnut said:
You just don't get it mate.

What a load of crock.

A scheme was announced, and as we go, we find the problems and throw more money at it.

If the NBN were a listed company it would be broke by now.

gg

Calliope said:
FAC is Fibro Asbestos Cement, or it was when I was with Telstra. You say "as far as I am aware". A strange admission for a guy who has assumed the role of NBN mouthpiece on this forum.

I certainly do not want some contractor employing a kid who escaped the Pink Batt's fiasco, with a trenching machine coming down my street and in to my yard when there is asbestosis about.

This is complete bollox NBNMyths.

You may be correct, to give you your due, that in a perfect world, this technology, may be feasible.

We do not however live in a perfect world.

The scheme is wildly over budget.

The wireless/satellite companies are lining up to cherry pick the profitable customers.

It proves the point though that just as doctors should be paid by the number of people kept healthy, as in China, and not by the number they cure, the same should be expected of the NBN.

It is not about trenches.

It is about getting a fast cheap internet, safely, at the best price, to the most people.

gg

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