IFocus
You are arguing with a Galah
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Actually Labor won the primary vote Abbott lost the independents who supported the NBN yes you are right NBN green light.
Well, if you go to an election with a policy to spend a certain amount of money on a certain project, and you are voted into Government, then I would suggest that you are well within your rights to spend that amount of money on that project.
You may question the legitimacy of the Labor Government at this time, but there is no question that a majority of Australians voted for parties (Labor or Greens) or independents (all of them) that supported the NBN. In other words, a majority of Australians voted to spend the money on the NBN.
Given this, how is the money expropriated?
I'm not sure what you mean by "any pro-NBN argument can also be applied to any other tax-funded project, regardless of its size?"
I am all for the NBN spending being scrutinised to ensure value for money. I am relieved that it's not the Government who is actually building it, and that they have recruited some very respected talent to run NBN Co.
The only valid reason I can see for a delay is if the rebuild leads to a labour shortage, and a subsequent increase in the cost of the rollout. In this case, NBN should be able to concentrate on unaffected areas first. But delaying due to the cost of recovery alone does not provide any benefit.
Yes, it's a big price tag. But good infrastructure costs big money. It's a massive project, hence the cost. We cant afford to rebuild flooded areas of QLD ?? How can we afford the price tag?? HUH
But in the scope of the budget, the Government contribution is quite reasonable. During the 10 years we'll spend $27.5bn on the NBN, we'll spend $1Trillion on public health, $500bn on public education and $200bn on defence. All necessary funding and projects that require IMMEDIATE attention. Not a shiny blue cable that will deliver internet speed faster?? I am all for having an NBN when we can fix what we have in place already !!!!
Our debt is relatively small, and the debt for the NBN (as bonds), is of no concern to me. The debt costs 5%, and will be returned at 7%. HAhahahahah a ha aaha ah a in 20 years time you iriot!!!!! . It's true that these numbers are based on the business plan, but that's all we have to go on, and it's been generally well received by financial commentators. It's also supported by the KPMG study. Tell me when financial commentators have EVER been right?? Name one position wherby they actually had the upper hand in a FISCAL argument ??? Why is it the rest of the WORLD is questioning the amount of money being spent??
Could we do something cheaper and still deliver significant benefits? More than likely we could SLOW DOWN the process and see if it is succesful rather than CHOKING on such a massive program.
Perhaps, but it wouldn't be very good in the long term. Wireless isn't even a stop-gap option, so that leaves either a copper upgrade of some sort or HFC cable. Upgrading copper is problematic, expensive and a short-term stop-gap. Of the 9200 telephone exchanges in Australia, only 400 have access to multiple ADSL2+ vendors, and the average ADSL2+ speed availability in Australia is 8-9Mbps due to distance issues. To get a decent speed increase (say delivering ~40Mbps to most people) would require the construction of tens-of-thousands of powered nodes containing VDSL tech. But this also requires two pairs of copper to each premises, which only about 15-20% of premises have. So we would need to build and power the nodes, run fibre to them, then run more copper to premises. I don't see there being much of a financial saving, but the outcome is far below what FTTP would bring.
BLAH BLAH BLAH HHHHHHHH ....... We have internet already at a relatively high speed compared to the rest of the world ......... I give up??? I am typing to you at a very fast pace. I cannot read any faster than what I am downloading already ?? Why do we need to have such blinding speed when less than 30% of Australia can cope with what we have now in the way of internet access?? HUH ??? The amount spent on IT already FIXING the **** we have in palce is astounding !!!!
Rolling out more Hybrid Fibre Coaxial (HFC) cable is of no cost benefit over fibre, so there's no point doing that. But, perhaps rather than overbuilding the HFC networks, they could be incorporated into the NBN. While the outcome for these areas would be well below the NBN fibre, it could offer short-term savings with no additional costs, and those areas could be fibred at a later date. FINALLY ....... some sense ......... UTILISE the existing infrastructure and creat e HYBRID version to benefit Australia THEN upgrade to worlds best practice.
There's a great (but technical) comparison of FTTP, FTTN and Wireless by Professor Rod Tucker from Melbourne Uni. If you want a better understanding of the options, it's worth a read.
I don't care who builds the NBN. If the Coalition came up with a viable alternative, I'd be all for it. But their current policy is, to be blunt, backward and atrocious. We are NOT talking politics .... I want the highest speed to download pr0n from the internet just like everyone else. I DON'T want it at the expense of the country or to the tax payer.
No, I'm not on any government, NBN, supplier, contractor or related payroll. I don't know anyone who is and I hold no shares in any company that would benefit from the NBN. I'm a small business owner, but passionate about technology. My only interest in the NBN is that I see it (or something like it) as a necessary piece of infrastructure for our future. LOLOLOL .......... then go and spend YOUR money getting the best available technology and RECEIVE all the high speed internet you want. I want a bigger boat with a 1000HP Volvo V10 motor. I CAN'T AFFORD it so I will just plug along with my little 450HP 6 cylinder until I can afford it.
Well, if we want to be technologically competitive, then yes we need to spend it. If technological competitiveness doesn't matter, then we don't need to spend it. That's probably the reason why so many business and technology groups are so supportive of the project. Do we need to be this technologically advanced?? REALLY ...... we are a nation of 23 million people. Not even a suburb of India or China. Get over yourself.
We are already seeing investment coming in on the back of the NBN, like HP's new $120M regional datacentre in Sydney. We are also seeing the beginning of the job and investment creation due to the construction itself, with hundreds of jobs and millions in Australian manufacturing upgrades:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/nbn-bonanza-for-cable-contractors/story-fn6bmfwf-1225990530604
http://delimiter.com.au/2011/01/17/nbn-co-inks-trio-of-small-cable-deals/
Fibre To The Premises (FTTP) is the best technology for communications delivery. It's also the most future proof (upgrade the ends, and the network gets faster). Fibre has been the fastest data transmission medium for 40 years, and current in-use bandwidth for one single strand of fibre is thousands of times greater than the maximum total theoretical bandwidth for wireless, let alone what we can actually get from it. That's why all our major networks are fibre based. All the world's countries, all the telephone exchanges, all the cellular towers are joined by fibre.
Pretty sure that it's not the most expensive fibre cabling system out there. NTT in Japan spent US$47billion on their NBN, and South Korea have just announced that they are spending another US$24bn upgrading their existing fibre network. Now if they are spending $24bn upgrading the hardware, you can be assured that it cost them lots more than that to roll out the fibre+hardware in the first place!
And let's not forget that the total cost isn't just for fibre. There will be hundreds of wireless towers and two dedicated satellites for rural and regional areas where low population density makes fibre cost-prohibitive and wireless viable.
Private funding...No-one has signed up, because no-one has been asked to. Private funding isn't required until 2015.
A 7% return is fine for a non-commercial project, and it doesn't need to be sold to get that return, any future sale is on top of that. The 7% return is purely from revenue.
Now since when do we expect a serious return from Government infrastructure? Do you think the roads, rail, electricity or telephone networks made commercial returns for the Govt when they were rolled out?
As for the future sale... Personally, I'd much rather that it not be sold, and the legislation actually requires the approval of federal parliament for that to take place.
As fo rthe rest of the palava you have placed out here in a public forum I am ashamed that Australians are prepared to place an anchor of such ill informed nonsense around their neck thinking that this will be the be all and end all of our great country. We do not have enough police, hospitals, road funding, education, scholastic requirements BUT WE NEED A FUGGEN SHINY BLUE CABLE????
I assume you're inferring that wireless is the future? Sorry, just not possible. There is a reason why there are no telco engineers advocating wireless as a replacement for fixed networks.
Nope .......... you missed it completely ....... the thrust of the video was to say that EVERYTHING is replacebale with new technology. You want a shiny blue cable ( Ozzie Osborne ....... before you know it a Justin Bieber walks on by and makes you redundant in a blink of an eye)
I have no issue with people who oppose the NBN for whatever reason. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But they are not entitled to their own facts, which is the entire reason for the NBN Myths site. When people make physically impossible claims about apparently alternate technologies, they should expect to be taken to task on them.
We cant afford to rebuild flooded areas of QLD ?? How can we afford the price tag?? HUH
All necessary funding and projects that require IMMEDIATE attention. Not a shiny blue cable that will deliver internet speed faster?? I am all for having an NBN when we can fix what we have in place already !!!!
Our debt is relatively small, and the debt for the NBN (as bonds), is of no concern to me. The debt costs 5%, and will be returned at 7%. HAhahahahah a ha aaha ah a in 20 years time you iriot!!!!! .
It's true that these numbers are based on the business plan, but that's all we have to go on, and it's been generally well received by financial commentators. It's also supported by the KPMG study. Tell me when financial commentators have EVER been right?? Name one position wherby they actually had the upper hand in a FISCAL argument ??? Why is it the rest of the WORLD is questioning the amount of money being spent??
Could we do something cheaper and still deliver significant benefits? More than likely we could SLOW DOWN the process and see if it is succesful rather than CHOKING on such a massive program.
BLAH BLAH BLAH HHHHHHHH ....... We have internet already at a relatively high speed compared to the rest of the world ......... I give up???
And that's exactly the point. The maintenance cost of keeping our decrepit old copper network running is huge. Why do you think Telstra are so keen to sign their agreement to decommission it?HUH ??? The amount spent on IT already FIXING the **** we have in palce is astounding !!!!
LOLOLOL .......... then go and spend YOUR money getting the best available technology and RECEIVE all the high speed internet you want. I want a bigger boat with a 1000HP Volvo V10 motor. I CAN'T AFFORD it so I will just plug along with my little 450HP 6 cylinder until I can afford it.
Do we need to be this technologically advanced?? REALLY ...... we are a nation of 23 million people. Not even a suburb of India or China. Get over yourself.
As fo rthe rest of the palava you have placed out here in a public forum I am ashamed that Australians are prepared to place an anchor of such ill informed nonsense around their neck thinking that this will be the be all and end all of our great country. We do not have enough police, hospitals, road funding, education, scholastic requirements BUT WE NEED A FUGGEN SHINY BLUE CABLE????
Nope .......... you missed it completely ....... the thrust of the video was to say that EVERYTHING is replacebale with new technology. You want a shiny blue cable ( Ozzie Osborne ....... before you know it a Justin Bieber walks on by and makes you redundant in a blink of an eye)And as should you for the myths you have spread as to the capabilities and costings of the greatest HOODWINK the Australian public is being induced into perceiving this is their only great hope of advancement into the future.
Talk about playing the fiddle whilst Rome burns. Harumph ..........
How is it not? 49% of the populace didn't want it, hence you are stealing from them. You are using phrase-laundering with the phrase 'the money'. It is 'our money'. A majority vote does not make moral theft from the minority.Well, if you go to an election with a policy to spend a certain amount of money on a certain project, and you are voted into Government, then I would suggest that you are well within your rights to spend that amount of money on that project.
You may question the legitimacy of the Labor Government at this time, but there is no question that a majority of Australians voted for parties (Labor or Greens) or independents (all of them) that supported the NBN. In other words, a majority of Australians voted to spend the money on the NBN.
Given this, how is the money expropriated?
"Its really good, its an investment for the future, we need it, the expense is justified, the existing infrastructure is 'insufficient', we don't want australia to 'slip behind', etc etc".I'm not sure what you mean by "any pro-NBN argument can also be applied to any other tax-funded project, regardless of its size?"
If that were the case, The Australian would have more than this for fodder,The NBN is a dead parrot.
ALP higher-ups have decided.
If that were the case, The Australian would have more than this for fodder,
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nbn-to-cost-24-times-s-koreas/story-e6frg6n6-1226002952747
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/aus...-nonsense-of-nbn/story-e6frgakx-1226002441049
God bless The Australian.
The NBN is a dead parrot.
ALP higher-ups have decided.
London to a brick.
gg
If it were to go, it will still be a slow and expensive death.It's gone, mate.
gg
Your radar is way off GG...probably courtesy of Yasi
maybe a case of post traumatic shock.:
Politically another back down would be the end of them....NBNMyths has gotchas all spooked.
If it were to go, it will still be a slow and expensive death.
To kill it outright would not only be a significant loss of hide for the ALP, it would also mean the loss of a few vital organs as well.
Agree. It would certainly be the end of Conroy, for one.If it were to go, it will still be a slow and expensive death.
To kill it outright would not only be a significant loss of hide for the ALP, it would also mean the loss of a few vital organs as well.
The Coalition almost lost it's brain when it changed Turnbull for Abbott, but in fairness to the Liberal Party, only one side of that brain was functioning at best.It would be certain political suicide...along the lines of say the Coalition dumping Turnbull for the totally unelectable 1 vote Tony...now that was a cracker. :bonk:
If they were to back away, the face saving option may be the rollout schedule.Too much to lose. One backdown too many.
The Coalition almost lost it's brain when it changed Turnbull for Abbott, but in fairness to the Liberal Party, only one side of that brain was functioning at best.
That will be intersting in the context of Messers Conroy and Thodey shaking hands at Telstra's profit announcement tomorrow.Believe me.
It's gorne.
gg
He was in agreement with Labor and the Greens on a price on carbon and that's primarily what got him rolled. That and general political stupidity (Godwin Grech).The Social Democrat side?
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