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Its all "Fruit Salad" to me!

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Yeah, Labor have done themselves no favours with all their internal faction fighting. The recent spat really made me wonder how they could lead the country. There's no internal unity, how can they unite a country?

Libs have had their diferences (Abbott and Costello still have leadership aspirations - Turnbull dark horse in coming years - Nelson seems very good and wants a bigger chair) but overall, they've managed to keep it together.

I am not a swinging voter as long as Liberal stick to their overarching political philosophy. Any form of Socialism will not work in the end. Labor are just uncommitted communists.
 
Julia said:
I'm actually a swinging voter, definitely not rusted on to the Liberal Party.
In fact, if an election were to be held tomorrow I'd probably vote Labor purely on the basis of their policy of withdawing our troops from Iraq.

Julia
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Hi Julia,
Please don't vote for Labor just because they say they will withdrew our troops from Iraq. I agree with you that our current troops should be withdrawn from Iraq as they serve very little purpose there, apart from waving the Australian flag. My proposal is that the current troops in Iraq should be moved to Afganistan and be replaced with a sqn of SAS working along side the American Special Forces. This achieves our Flag waving responsibilities, provides a much better force multiplier to the Americans and allows our SAS to work alongside their American counterparts.

Julia have you actually spoken to any of our service man and woman? Because you will find the majority of them want to be on overseas deployments. How would I know, because I was a member for 15 years.
I don't write this as a personal attack on you at all. It just seems to me that the general public doesn't seem to understand that our defence members actually want to be deployed. It would be like training for a rugby game your whole life, but never being allowed to actually run onto the field and play.
 


kitehigh,

This is one of the reasons the general public can not understand Defence Force members. Who joins something JUST to go off to war? What? Any old war? Any situation where you might have to kill or be killed? Or, are you talking more about service to the country and fellow person. I hope so. Army is not all adventure any more. The realities of war are there in our faces every day. It all ends in blood and tears. Not adventure and excitement.

Unlike you I did not join the Army to deploy overseas. I joined so that I would NOT have to fight. We need an Army to defend our country and our way of living, but the last thing anyone should be wishing is to actually fight.

And yes, been there, glad to be in the reserves now, spending my days analysing stocks.
 

interesting you say that. I was in the gold coastr a few weeks ago and was sitting next to roughly 15 american and australian soldiers. I started chatting to them and they were explainging to me the real misperception that there is with the community. they were all explaining to me what great things that they have been doing and how it is actully improving Iraq. A few of them were against being there but said that they actully were seeing the results. The media is obviously putting a huge spin on the war in iraq.

twojacks28
 
kennas said:
I am not a swinging voter as long as Liberal stick to their overarching political philosophy. Any form of Socialism will not work in the end. Labor are just uncommitted communists.
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If only the Liberal party believed in that as strongly as you do. Their level of market intervention under the guise of socialism is a bit too much for me.

First home owners grant - props up the value of properties owned by the Boomers whilst doing more harm than good for first home buyers IMO.

Baby bonus - outright socialism with no clear justification. The world is UNDER populated? I think not...

Personally, I tend for focus on results AND the means of achieving them. The Liberal obsession with selling national / state assets to private owners, in many cases with a clearly demonstrable loss to the taxpayer whilst also losing control over key policy areas, reeks of dodgy deals as far as I'm concerned.

It just isn't sustainable to keep selling off bits of the farm because eventually there's nothing left apart from cash. Then the cash gets spent, as it will during some election campaign, and the government ends up with virtually zero assets.

THEN what do we do next time there's a crisis? Short answer is we borrow and borrow big and end up with debt but no assets...
 

Everyone joining our defence force understands or should understand that they can be deployed overseas in the interest of serving our national interest.
You might not agree that having troops in Iraq is serving our interests, but that is neither here nor there. The Govt has decided that it does serve our interest and so that is the reason our troops are currently in that location. Sometimes the public doesn't fully understand the reasons for having troops deployed, and of course this is our politicians job to justify deployments.
Defending our country doesn't always mean staying home and defending our landmass.
Anymember of the ADF who is not prepared to be deployed overseas should resign.
"Only the dead have seen the end of war" Plato
A sad but undeniable fact.

On the realities of war, I have seen and expericanced it through my own eyes so I don't need you to tell me how it all ends. I know.
You and I are different people Kennas. It doesn't mean one is any better than the other, just different. I am quite happy to put myself in harms way, comfortable in the fact that I doing it for not only my country but also my mates. Which when it comes down to it, is who you end up fighting for the most, the protection and hopefully safe return of some of your closest friends.
You will never find such close friends as you do in the Defence environment.

In regards to the media, I learnt along time ago that you have to take everything your read and see on the TV with a grain of salt. As most of it is usually that badly distorted or plain rubbish thats it hard to believe any of it. I enjoy watching "Media Watch" on ABC. Good show for any who haven't seen it before.
 
Smurf1976 said:
Baby bonus - outright socialism with no clear justification. The world is UNDER populated? I think not...
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the government isnt saying that the world is under populated smurf. the point of baby bonuses is to try and get families to have momre children as australia is going to have a large population in their 70-80s while we have a much smaller population in our 20s etc. australia is going to soon have more older people then they do younger people as australians are living longer. this results in the younger people having to pay more tax to support the older population. therefore taxes will have to be higher to cope with the number of senior citizens.
 
Agentm said:
john howard made promises regarding higher interest rates,

but PLUM forgot to mention the fruit :bananasmi
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The way the Libs are going with interest rates they are giving us all the "pip".

Honest John's claim that interest rates are always going to be lower under the conservatives was an untestable therefore unjustiable assertion, but Muck Late Ham didn't have the nous to pick up on it. I've always voted ALP in the past, but I couldn't buy them with the leadership they had at the last election. Things may be different next time. Regards YN.
 

Kitehigh,

My comment was made from the point of view that I didn't agree with Australia becoming involved in the attack on Iraq in the first place, and that I believe our continued involvement is increasing the likelihood of Australia being a terrorist target. I may be quite wrong.

I can also see John Howard's point of view that if the coalition withdraws at this stage it will be an obvious victory to the insurgents, leaving Iraq in the chaos of civil war or similar. If I had a vote on the issue, I'd accept this latter disadvantage for what I see as the greater benefit of the first point.

I have absolutely no comprehension of how anyone wants to join the Defence Forces to be deployed in some war where you are quite likely to be killed. Just don't get it. Sorry. Kennas's reasoning makes a lot more sense to me. There at least seems something worthwhile about defending your country but I'm damned if I can see how it enhances anyone's life to be blown to bits by some jihadist suicide bomber.

However, I guess it's just as well we have people like you as long as governments persist in involving us in conflicts such as Iraq.
I don't intend any disrespect to you, Kitehigh. I just can't understand your motives.

Julia
 

Totally agree with you Julia, particularly as the "national interest" turns out in most cases to be "corporate interest"
 
Hell man, Media watch is the best.
I have sadly come to the conclusion that until the govt regains credibility on
a) missions that it sends service personnel on, and
b) fair compensation for those who are injured - including the effects of Agent Orange, Gulf War Syndrome etc (where they hide behind legal denial and delaying tactics - I'm sure that's where James Hardie got their ideas from) , then there's no way I'd recommend to my boys that they sign up.

- Can I ask a question, did you see Fahrenheit 9/11? Would you say that you have to take that with a grain of salt? And if so what did you think of the US recruiting drive? Personally I'm 100% convinced it's the recruiters that you have to take with a grain of salt. The young inexperienced soldiers that are recruited are the front line troops that the USA sends to "win the hearts and minds". Maybe their heart is in it (in tandem with dollars or adventure - anything to get out of the Bronx or whereever), but some of them werent picked for their strength in the mind department if you ask me. Like, the recruiters almost targetted the most underpriveleged kids, unemployed etc. - I keep thinking of StarWars and those white unthinking dorklike things that fight for Darth Vader etc - and are easily tied in mental knots by Obiwon Kinobe)

There was as I recall one Congressman (out of 330 approx ?) who had any family whatsoever in the services. They all sidestepped Mike Moor as if he had leprosy - as he tried to pin them down for an interview on this.

Anyway if it makes any difference I was in the Army as well. Vietnam days (though I never went there). I heard the endless stories of domino theory etcetc . - long time ago, we all thought it then, since debunked (in hindsight) of course. I enjoyed the army - but sheesh am I wary of its spin doctoring beforehand and/or its justice after the event.
 
Relevance of the following ? lol - well we all seem to be casting dispersions about this or that politician- thought I'd give you my opinion of the lot of em

CLUES AND GUESS WHO

I act like I've seen it, I sound like I mean it, my Forebear got caught in the nud,
I go for long walks wearing big baggy shorts, At 5 foot they drag in the mud,
I stammer when pulling a wabbit from tophats, or core-pwomise carrots from cwud,
half Point for John Howard (the wallflower flowered) , and One if you said ELMA FUDD.

I'm chubby and jolly, a bit prone to folly, My friends think I act a bit weasily,
I sat on a wall just awaiting the call, My mates pushed me forward quite queezily;
It fell to the caucus, to rabid and raucusly Pull me to pieces quite easily,
The answer is DUMPTY, my Christian name's HUMPTY ,Half points if you wrote down Kim Beazley.

Well Just for a tease, I'll make this one easy- I'm often away out of towner,
I Pulled out a plum from under my tongue, I'm also a bit of a frowner,
I go to Manila to drink my tequila, (but Tans in Jamaica are browner)
I'm little JACK HORNER, the one in the Corner, Half points if you said Alex Downer.

Who are we? we go out at midday for lunch, By three we're as pissed as a newt, as
Long as we breakfast on egos and and talkfest, and squander our share of the loot,
well, "Poly-" means many, and "-tics" are all bloodsuckers ,"Politics" all up the shoot,
Well...
Ten points for HOUSE OF REPS, twenty for SENATE, and Fifty for both - et tu Brute.
 

Our involvement in the war on Iraq hasn't changed the terrorist mind set. They were after us a long time before the war in Iraq. If you look at what they are trying to achieve, than you will understand their thinking. It is an indepth study, but I will give you a short run down of their aims.
AQ want to re- establish the old Islamic Empire that streched from India in the East to Spain in the West. The more radicals of them all would like to see the entire world embrace Islam. They have a long term time agenda, they are thinking it will take 100 yrs possibly more.


Its not only Iraq that will be affected if America pulls out and just lets the place slide into chaos. The entire middle east region has the potential to go up in flames. And with the middle east being the biggest supplier of oil to the global market, think the entire world will feel the effects.


As per the point I mentioned before in a previous post. Defending your country also requires you to take the fight to the enemy. Ie targeting Bomb making factories, distruption of safe havens, cutting off the enemys financial support. None of these can be achieved by purely staying in ones country and defending our borders. By taking these actions we reduce the enemys ability to be able to strike at us.


Julia said:
However, I guess it's just as well we have people like you as long as governments persist in involving us in conflicts such as Iraq.
I don't intend any disrespect to you, Kitehigh. I just can't understand your motives.
Julia
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No disrespect taken, we are all different. But don't think for a moment if we just sat back and put our head in the sands that everything will be rosy. We are war if you like it or not and the war began long before Iraq, there just wasn't a formal declaration on the behalf of AQ.
 

I did see Fahrenheit 9/11, it was mildly entertaining but Michael Moore's crediablitity is not the greatest either.

Yes the americans have a problem with the intellegence of their average soldier. Mainly due to having to maintain such a large defence force, they are forced to lower their standards. Thankfully this isn't the case with our ADF. You have to feel for the average GI, not the sharpest tool in the shed and the pay isn't great either. But they do have a great sense of patriotism and pride in their country which some Australians could take note of.
Maybe the recruiters are doing some of these kids a favour. By taking them off the streets and giving them a sense of purpose that was previously missing in their lives. I know having a sense of purpose in ones life is one of the biggest factors when it comes to general wellbeing and individual happiness.

Yes only one of the congressman had a member serving in the forces, you would probably find something similar in Australia. It doesn't bother me in the slightest if our politians don't any have family members serving in the defence force.
Its funny how Michael Moore gets around as if he is for the soldiers. You speak to the majority of the American soldiers and they will tell you that they loaf him, along with the rest of his kind.
 
You are seriously suggesting that you believe Iraq or Afghanistan was a threat to Aus.... or the US even?

LOL

I'll give the army one thing, and that is the ability to indoctrinate.

Let me tell you something. Any threat from Islam to the West is a direct result of our own actions. i.e. foreign policy + immigration policy.

However I do agree that we now do have a threat. However this threat is ideological rather than political and we need to fight it on those grounds.

Invading countries with oil will only work against us by strengthening the Islamist ideological resolve. We are creating terrorists where there were none and have been doing so since 1948
 
The baby bonus and first home grant were the dumbest economic moves I can remember in this country.
The baby bonus is promoting young women to get pregnant for an easy $3000, the money would have been better put into a fund for education of that child in 6-18years time

Alsoo having babies now doesn't help our labour shortages that will come up in the next 5-15years as boomers retire. Even the government has acknowledged the problems and are making it more attractive and promoting the retirees to stay in the work force

The need to increase the population could have been done with a more relaxed immigration policy geared towards young skilled workers.


As for the home owners grant, it just prolonged the boom, the money effectively went to the sellers and the new buyers got nothing out of it.
Also great that people were being able to access it for million dollar properties

And as for Iraq involvement, gee what great bargaining they did for us to get involved, the Americans needed us there more than anything we got out of it including protecting the country.
How much have we spent on it as tax payers? The least we could have got is more concessions on the FTA for farm subsidies & PBS which would go someway to compensating us for the involvement.

(Oh and the fact that Australia has lost nearly all if not all the wheat supply deals thanks to AWB, they could have argued for that for us saying the course)
 
kitehigh said:
I did see Fahrenheit 9/11, it was mildly entertaining ..
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Thanks for your candid reply Kite - I think we should all see that movie. Eternal vigilence should include some of the factors he raises imho. btw - I didnt mean to infer that any of these decisions are easy.
2020hindsight said:
I have sadly come to the conclusion that until the govt regains credibility on a) missions that it sends service personnel on, ...
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I should add something to what I said back there - gee I was proud of the Aussie soldiers who sorted out East Timor Solomons too. And whether its the attitude or the patriotist (unwarped by propaganda) or the IQ (IQ!damned if I'd tell that theory to a GI lol) or whatever, We just seem to be "better at that stuff" that the GI's.

PS - changing the topic a bit here, but I read somewhere that the GI's - and probably closely followed by the Aussies - were amongst the first to fold during brain washing in the Korea war. To some extent their patriotism (and ours? who nose? but Id like to think not) is a bit shaky when put to the test. And the hardest to brainwash were the very religious, and particularly the Moslems - who were pretty much "brain bludy unwashable". I think of that whenever I see theories about "making" Moslems change (I'm talking moderate ones). The extremists? - no way is that an easy problem of course
 


Wayne be serious. Those weapons of mass destruction are a threat to all of us.
Just have to figure out where they were moved to. North Korea or Iran?

I mean how could you not follow this guy, what an orator.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEzmNXkGYq0&mode=related&search=
 
There is only one way to get a change. Forget party politics just change the politicians. Put the sitting member LAST, then work out the best of the rest. They all get too big for their boots eventually and Honest John is a good example (delete honest)
 
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