Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

qldfrog said:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/03/its-time-for-saudi-arabia-to-stop-exporting-extremism/
Interesting reading in my opinion, and nearly sure it is not an alt right site
The inconvenient truth

Click to expand...

I fear the only real solution is one almost nobody will like, including me.

But I think "excessive" liberalism is creating a rich seed bed for the rise of one or another form of totalitarianism, and maybe... probably, war.

...and that is already germinating.

wayneL said:

I fear the only real solution is one almost nobody will like, including me.

But I think "excessive" liberalism is creating a rich seed bed for the rise of one or another form of totalitarianism, and maybe... probably, war.

...and that is already germinating.

Click to expand...

I think much more than 10 years ago it was possible to see the writing on the wall telling that we were on a path to the world's largest ever war. It was a little over 10 years ago that I saw it and started talking about it. At the time almost everyone said I was crazy. More and more people now agree, and it's not an unusual thing to believe. At this point it's strange to not be able to see what's going on. We live in a completely bizarre world with such blatant social engineering going on which in some ways is so obvious it's strange anyone could fail to see it, but it is indeed strange and most people still can't see it.

Clearly insane narratives completely counter to reality are relentlessly pushed by governments and the media they control. People are now increasingly being actively forced to believe them or at least pay lip service to them. Many of these are clearly destructive to the countries in which the narratives are being pushed. Speaking reality is actively being punished in an increasing number of cases, and this is extremely partisan.

Looking at Islam (the topic of this thread), it bluntly commands members to be terrorists and not surprisingly there are countless cases of terrorism caused by it (promising people ever lasting happiness with a harem of virgins if they blow innocent people and themselves up... if that doesn't count as evil it'll do until something evil comes along!). The vast majority of these are completely or effectively ignored by the media. When they are mentioned, the media constantly plays it down, makes excuses, distracts from the religion of the person/people doing it, often denies it, and often paints the terrorist as the victim. In most cases it claims they are 'lone wolf attacks' etc. When we get one white person shooting a mosque, clearly acting as a 'lone wolf', the media says it is clearly a symptom of a wider movement and representative of a general feeling of a huge number of people! It is plastered all over the news, the country's PM wears a hijab, etc. Speaking against Muslims is a hate crime, but speaking against white people or Christians, even calling for their deaths, is completely fine.

How is it even a question to ask if this is evil?

Sdajii said:

I think much more than 10 years ago it was possible to see the writing on the wall telling that we were on a path to the world's largest ever war. It was a little over 10 years ago that I saw it and started talking about it. At the time almost everyone said I was crazy. More and more people now agree, and it's not an unusual thing to believe. At this point it's strange to not be able to see what's going on. We live in a completely bizarre world with such blatant social engineering going on which in some ways is so obvious it's strange anyone could fail to see it, but it is indeed strange and most people still can't see it.

Clearly insane narratives completely counter to reality are relentlessly pushed by governments and the media they control. People are now increasingly being actively forced to believe them or at least pay lip service to them. Many of these are clearly destructive to the countries in which the narratives are being pushed. Speaking reality is actively being punished in an increasing number of cases, and this is extremely partisan.

Looking at Islam (the topic of this thread), it bluntly commands members to be terrorists and not surprisingly there are countless cases of terrorism caused by it (promising people ever lasting happiness with a harem of virgins if they blow innocent people and themselves up... if that doesn't count as evil it'll do until something evil comes along!). The vast majority of these are completely or effectively ignored by the media. When they are mentioned, the media constantly plays it down, makes excuses, distracts from the religion of the person/people doing it, often denies it, and often paints the terrorist as the victim. In most cases it claims they are 'lone wolf attacks' etc. When we get one white person shooting a mosque, clearly acting as a 'lone wolf', the media says it is clearly a symptom of a wider movement and representative of a general feeling of a huge number of people! It is plastered all over the news, the country's PM wears a hijab, etc. Speaking against Muslims is a hate crime, but speaking against white people or Christians, even calling for their deaths, is completely fine.

How is it even a question to ask if this is evil?

Click to expand...

"How is it even a question to ask if this is evil?"

Perhaps because your version of reality is just a monstrous lie and no matter how often other evidence is offered to demonstrate that you continue to peddle it.

basilio said:

"How is it even a question to ask if this is evil?"

Perhaps because your version of reality is just a monstrous lie and no matter how often other evidence is offered to demonstrate that you continue to peddle it.

Click to expand...

How is it a monstrous lie?

Mohamed literally spend his life leading people to kill innocent people and to commit acts of terrorism. This is not a monstrous lie, it is just actual historical data, whether you look at secular history or Islam's own description of history (except they classify any human who is not Muslim or who does not want to be Muslim of being sufficiently guilty to deserve being killed). This in itself should qualify it as evil.

Their holy book literally commands them to commit acts of terrorism. It is literally their duty. How is this not evil?

The holy book bribes them with virgins in the afterlife if they die while killing non Muslims. How is this not evil?

It literally condones rape, beating of women, slavery, sex slavery, it is literally genocidal. How is this not evil?

All of these things are being actively carried out today, and have been literally since the religion's creation over a thousand years ago.

Which part of this is a lie? How is this not evil?

Sdajii said:

How is it a monstrous lie?

Mohamed literally spend his life leading people to kill innocent people and to commit acts of terrorism. This is not a monstrous lie, it is just actual historical data, whether you look at secular history or Islam's own description of history (except they classify any human who is not Muslim or who does not want to be Muslim of being sufficiently guilty to deserve being killed). This in itself should qualify it as evil.

Their holy book literally commands them to commit acts of terrorism. It is literally their duty. How is this not evil?

The holy book bribes them with virgins in the afterlife if they die while killing non Muslims. How is this not evil?

It literally condones rape, beating of women, slavery, sex slavery, it is literally genocidal. How is this not evil?

All of these things are being actively carried out today, and have been literally since the religion's creation over a thousand years ago.

Which part of this is a lie? How is this not evil?

Click to expand...

Repeating the lies doesn't make them true. It just places you where you want to be.

basilio said:

Repeating the lies doesn't make them true. It just places you where you want to be.

Click to expand...

Repeating lies does not make them true, but none of the above is a lie. If you are claiming these are not facts, you are the one lying.

If you honestly think these things are not true, let's look into one or more of them.

Mohamed was literally a warmonger. He didn't just spend his life building a temple, praying in it and telling people to love each other. He literally lead armies to kill innocent people, he literally encouraged rape, he literally endorsed slavery, etc etc.

This is not some crazy myth recently spread by people, this is what tangibly did happen. The holy book of Islam says Mohamed was the perfect man and people should be as much like him as possible. It literally says that if anyone questions or suggests changing a single word of the religion they should be killed.

Again, how is this not evil?

If you honestly believe any of these things are not correct, name them and we can look into it.

Even if you want to believe that secular history is incorrect, the religion itself is what we are describing as evil, and the religion itself says these things, which would make it evil even if the real world events during Mohamed's life never happened.

And when you ask people if they have read the Koran, it is a no, or i read extract.
How easy it is to go and read the book
Just the book its itsching etc
But people are so scared of the inconvenient truth they cowardly backoff with the lamest of excuses
Islam the religion is evil for me as a believer in mankind, equality of human rights etc
Most muslims may not be evil but that is just because many are wise enough not to follow the book.

qldfrog said:

And when you ask people if they have read the Koran, it is a no, or i read extract.
How easy it is to go and read the book
Just the book its itsching etc
But people are so scared of the inconvenient truth they cowardly backoff with the lamest of excuses
Islam the religion is evil for me as a believer in mankind, equality of human rights etc
Most muslims may not be evil but that is just because many are wise enough not to follow the book.

Click to expand...

Absolutely, 200%

The people defending Islam are either Muslim or do not understand Islam.

No one should defend (or oppose) Islam or anything else without being informed.

It is indeed easy to read the Koran, but the people defending it won't do that. I strongly believe that a significant number of these people refuse to read it and inform themselves not because they are lazy but because deep down they do know that reading it will confront them with a reality they have been denying in too clear a way for them to continue to deny it, and people so hate admitting that they were wrong after publicly supporting something.

And yes, absolutely, many (I believe most) Muslims are good people. Not because of their religion but in spite of it. The religion commands people to kill and terrorise. Anyone who follows that is surely a bad person. Anyone who is Muslim and a good person (the majority of them, I believe) are good people because they are fundamentally good individual people and not following the religion correctly.

Considering literally most Muslims in the world today would be killed (by other Muslims) if they openly said "I no longer wish to be Muslim" (again, how on Earth is that not evil?), I am sure a lot of them would actually like to leave, and only remain as Muslims because they literally have only 3 alternatives: 1) Remain Muslim 2) Death 3) Run away from all family and friends and remain in exile for life in a far away land, starting a new life with no support from their home, knowing if they ever return they will be killed, and their life will always be in danger.

This is literally the 3 options the majority of Muslims in the world today have. It is even the reality for the majority of the men. Imagine how bad it is for the women who are literally taught from little girls that they are worth half what a man is and that they must always be subservient to males. Imagine that level of brainwashing and how difficult it is for them to leave - virtually impossible for almost all of them.

...and most people still say Islam is not evil!

basilio said:

Repeating the lies doesn't make them true.

Click to expand...

You should be able to do better than that. What exactly are the lies regarding his statements on Islam. It seems that when it comes to climate change your correctly demand facts, but when it comes to Islam you shy away from reality. The claims regarding Islam are not right wing provocation, but are factually correct and have been re-iterated time and time again by many on the left side of politics who are willing to face up to the truth.

So why not prove Sdajji wrong rather than calling him a liar.

Bellenuit, why do you even bother?
Sdajii said it in the best of way:

I strongly believe that a significant number of these people refuse to read it and informt not because they are lazy but because deep down they do know that reading it will confront them with areality they have been denying in too clear a way for them to continue to deny it, and people so hate admitting that they were wrong after publicly supporting something.

Intellectual cowards....

Proving Sdajii wrong ?
I'll take just one point that is current and clearly a lie.

Sdajii said:

When we get one white person shooting a mosque, clearly acting as a 'lone wolf', the media says it is clearly a symptom of a wider movement and representative of a general feeling of a huge number of people! It is plastered all over the news, the country's PM wears a hijab, etc. Speaking against Muslims is a hate crime, but speaking against white people or Christians, even calling for their deaths, is completely fine.

How is it even a question to ask if this is evil?

Click to expand...

The Christchurch murderer made it totally clear he was representing and attempting to inspire whatever number of other fanatics out there to start shooting up mosques, Muslims whatever.

That was why he published a manifesto filled with the sort of hate speech Sdajii is echoing

That is why he live cammed his murders in a mosque.

And somehow Sdajii represents him as a "lone wolf" and undermines the fact that this was a terrorist act intended to inflame hatred and encourage similar actions ?

I think this thread is one of the more inflammatory and abusive places on ASF.

I do not accept that painting the religious foundation of 25% of the worlds population as inherently murderous is either true or an acceptable statement. In my view it comes under the heading of Hate Speech and should be treated as such.

basilio said:

Proving Sdajii wrong ?
I'll take just one point that is current and clearly a lie.



The Christchurch murderer made it totally clear he was representing and attempting to inspire whatever number of other fanatics out there to start shooting up mosques, Muslims whatever.

That was why he published a manifesto filled with the sort of hate speech Sdajii is echoing

That is why he live cammed his murders in a mosque.

And somehow Sdajii represents him as a "lone wolf" and undermines the fact that this was a terrorist act intended to inflame hatred and encourage similar actions ?

I think this thread is one of the more inflammatory and abusive places on ASF.

I do not accept that painting the religious foundation of 25% of the worlds population as inherently murderous is either true or an acceptable statement. In my view it comes under the heading of Hate Speech and should be treated as such.

Click to expand...

Firstly, I have not made anything resembling hate speech, I denounce hate speech, and I formally, unambiguously request you to retract the accusation. A doctrine which commands the murder of innocent people is evil. Stating this is not hate speech. I even made a specific point of saying that I believe most Muslims are good people. Clearly I do not wish hate upon people. It is disgusting of you to make this accusation.

Yes, indeed, the Christchurch shooter did clearly wish to incite others to take actions and to change their thinking. This is clearly under the definition of terrorism. However, it is not in any way exclusive with acting as a lone wolf. There is no evidence and to my knowledge no suggestion that he was acting as part of any organised group. This means he was very much a lone wolf. I have never suggested or implied in any way that he wasn't a terrorist or that he wasn't trying to influence others. This is irrelevant to his status as a lone wolf, it is relevant to his status as a terrorist, which he clearly is.

The fact that you do not accept that a doctrine is inherently murderous simply makes you ignorant if that doctrine is indeed murderous. If a man literally lives a life leading people to kill innocent people and writes a book commanding people to kill innocent people, giving them threats of eternal Hell if they don't and bribes of eternal happiness with virgins to do with as they please if they do, how does it not qualify as inherently murderous? If this is not inherently murderous, could you describe something which is?

It is sad that simply stating clear, unambiguous facts which in no way seek to bring any sort of harm or any sort of hatred upon any person is considered hate speech by some people. It is sad that a doctrine which from its very beginning has been the source of terrorism, rape, slavery, murder and genocide is defended, and that anyone saying that such an evil thing is evil is the one guilty of hate speech! If saying something which commands and directly causes people to kill, rape, terrorise and enslave is what it is, in your opinion, is hate speech, what on Earth is the thing itself which commands and causes people to murder, rape, enslave and terrorise? You are the one actually defending extreme hate speech. I challenge you to read to Koran and inform yourself. There, you will see true hate speech. Just as an example, the first time I opened a Koran, before I read it, I turned to a random page and read the first line I happened to see, which was "The Jews are the enemy of Islam". Islam has an expressly stated mission to exterminate the Jews (not surprisingly, they have been attempting it for over 1,400 years now, as it is their duty). Is saying the Jews are the enemy and literally commanding their extermination hate speech? Is standing against hate speech hate speech? This is by no means the worst of it, just something which happens to stick in my mind because it was the first line of the Koran I read.

If you want to stand against hate speech, read the Koran and you'll find plenty of material!

I think this quote from the article that follows sums up just some of the problems being discussed here:

This began to change about six months ago when I became involved with the ex-Muslim movement. As I became acquainted with the activism of role models such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Yasmine Mohamed, Armin Navabi and Ali Rizvi, I began to recognise the cognitive dissonance afflicting the left, leaving them with a severe blind spot. A bizarre alliance with Islam, a set of very conservative ideas, has earned them the label of “regressive left’’ instead. Their misguided campaign against “Islamophobia” has failed to separate the ideology from the people, conflating prejudice against Muslims with valid opposition to the doctrine. The stigma has hindered constructive discourse and established a concerning trend whereby issues typically challenged by the left, such as homophobia and gender inequality are disregarded where prevalent in Muslim majority countries or even Muslim communities within the west.

How Intersectionalism Betrays the World’s Muslim Women

https://quillette.com/2019/04/28/how-intersectionalism-betrays-the-worlds-muslim-women/

basilio said:

I do not accept that painting the religious foundation of 25% of the worlds population as inherently murderous is either true or an acceptable statement. In my view it comes under the heading of Hate Speech and should be treated as such.

Click to expand...

Well, I'm afraid you have fallen for the PC dogma that criticism of bad acts of some members of a sect is criticism of all members of that sect.

That is purely rubbish, and it's a lie perpetrated by vested interests to avoid genuine criticism, whether those interests be Jewish (criticism of Israel's actions in the Gaza strip are blatant examples of anti Semitism) or Muslim (criticism of terrorist attacks, cutting the hands of beggars, flogging women for being raped etc is blatant Islamaphobia).

Of course if any members of that sect agree with the bad acts of other members of that sect then they are included in the criticism, if they don't agree then they can use the benefits of living in a democracy to say so.

People in this country have a right to criticise anyone else, as long as they can back up their comments with facts, and Sadjii and others have done this, so if you disagree with his statements then argue them on FACT and don't run and hide under the cover of "hate speech".

So once again and i know the answer, have you read the Koran Basilio?
And what is your pretext not to?
Too busy defending islam on social media?

When we were young impressionable boys we liked the part of the Bible that said that you were entitled to beat your slaves.We fantasised on giving her a real thrashing.

Geronimo (Mescalero-Chiricahua: Goyaałé [kòjàːɬɛ́] "the one who yawns"; June 1829 – February 17, 1909) was a prominent leader and medicine man from the Bedonkohe band of the Apache tribe. From 1850 to 1886 Geronimo joined with members of three other Chiricahua Apache bands—the Tchihende, the Tsokanende and the Nednhi—to carry out numerous raids as well as resistance to US and Mexican military campaigns in the northern Mexico states of Chihuahua and Sonora, and in the southwestern American territories of New Mexico and Arizona. Geronimo's raids and related combat actions were a part of the prolonged period of the Apache–United States conflict, which started with American settlement in Apache lands following the end of the war with Mexico in 1848.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geronimo

What has Geronimo got to do with Muslims? Anyway, looking at his views, quite changeable, he was probably more adaptable and changed depending on circumstances. Those of religion who refuse to change or adapt in anyway should listen to the words of Geronimo.


From right to left, Apache leader Geronimo, Yanozha (Geronimos's brother-in-law), Chappo (Geronimo's son by his second wife), and Fun (Yanozha's half brother) in 1886. Taken by C. S. Fly.

THE GLOBAL WAR ON CHRISTIANS IN THE MUSLIM WORLD

https://www.newsweek.com/ayaan-hirsi-alithe-global-war-christians-muslim-world-65817

The conspiracy of silence surrounding this violent expression of religious intolerance has to stop. Nothing less than the fate of Christianity—and ultimately of all religious minorities—in the Islamic world is at stake.