explod
explod
- Joined
- 4 March 2007
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That's my point. I'm an optimistic bear. The lower it goes, the more chance there is that the stocks I like to own will be available cheap. There's plenty more bad news coming for financial stocks, and every chance we're going to get a downturn in the housing market here, or even a recession. Great! I'm a value investor and I love bargains!
My guess is the bottom will be around the end of the year, and before then we'll get some bad news that everyone said could never happen. Meanwhile, there's no harm in cash and a spot of gold.
There is so much that is different in this modern world. The problem this time around was the cheap credit in a system that allows banks to lend money they didn't have in the first place and without proper security. They are allowed to lend 10 times their deposits which works if nobody wants their cash. In the great depression the banks had lent actual money and couldn't get it back. Then they ran out of money themselves. The money has dried up but the world is still functioning almost normally apart from that.I think it may be very much worse than that.
By many accounts, this downturn has more troubling demensions than the Great Depression which began in the 1920's and did not really lift out of the doldrums till the late 1950's, some would say a small lift and then still bad in the 1970's.
I think this one got going in earnest about 2001/2, the Dot.com and the lift from there was built on cheap money, which in effect, as we are beginning to witness has been a valueless spike/bubble.
So if it is as bad as the Great Depression, some 30 years, then 2040 could be ok, except by then the problems of global warming and too many people will be a real problem.
Nor was there a super fund rolling along as there is now.
You have drawn a number of erroneous conclusions about the the causes Great Depression. I would do some more research.There is so much that is different in this modern world. The problem this time around was the cheap credit in a system that allows banks to lend money they didn't have in the first place and without proper security. They are allowed to lend 10 times their deposits which works if nobody wants their cash. In the great depression the banks had lent actual money and couldn't get it back. Then they ran out of money themselves. The money has dried up but the world is still functioning almost normally apart from that.
Nor was there a super fund rolling along as there is now. Oil was abundant but had little use. Oil is scarce, energy is scarce, food is scarce. From the depression to WW1 farmers couldn't sell their produce. Men were walking the roads looking for work, now we have a labour shortage and the reserve bank is trying to slow the economy.
The bears are endangered, cattle prices today are at near record highs. The bulls will rule.
Nokia, you have a propensity to characterize bears as lemmings. Dumb. Bears are bulls with different criteria. Bears are looking for restoration of value and/or hedging aginst imbalances of value, nothing more.
Cheers
There is a good reason for this. Bear activity brings out the conditions for lemmings to mass ready for a run to the cliffs. Bull activity stamps them into the ground. I do agree that a bear market does help to re-establish values.
My knowledge of the great depression is mainly gained directly from being brought up by people directly affected and listening to their lessons and their experiences. My youth was spent during the days when families and friends spent many hours sitting around conversing. Also having many friends with their lives greatly affected by the depression as indeed was mine. Reading about it is the same as reading advice from some of the current economists. Even though I say that, I know that I'm never going to always be right and never too old to learn.
In the past, I would make market pronouncements with absolute certainty, but I have since learned my lesson. I don't know what will happen, but I do know that all good things come to an end. Nearly everyone who doesn't work for the government believes the economy is in recession. The second quarter ends this month and companies will start releasing earnings reports in early July. What will they say? How was business? The market already seems to be getting the jitters.
Common sense dictates slow to no growth for a long time coming:
High gas prices with no sign of abating
Higher food prices, especially in light of Midwest floods
No end in sight to housing bust
Continued tight credit
Rising unemployment
Consumers maxed out, little savings and starting to save what they can
The possibility of war before the election
It is that last item that could result in catastrophe. A war with Iran, as is being discussed, would send oil prices skyrocketing overnight. Americans may be able to get by - barely - on $4 gas, but what if that doubles? What would happen to the economy at $8 gas? How would people get to work? What would happen to the price of food, and to heating our homes come winter? Printing more money for the war would send the dollar's value down further. Inflation would go into overdrive.
Considering the cavalier attitude this administration has shown towards war, it simply cannot be ruled out. The drums of war are getting louder. The stock market is clearly getting nervous about something heading into summer
And then along came.....
Secretary Paulson announced plans to give the Federal Reserve new and explicit powers to oversee and regulate the financial services industry. However, a sober look at his plan reveals that it is tantamount to giving the fox complete autonomy to guard the henhouse
What few economic leaders have acknowledged is that the Federal Reserve itself is responsible for the real estate and credit bubbles, which are the source of our current troubles. By keeping interest rates too low for too long, the Fed ignited a speculative fever and engendered a disregard for risk management that pushed asset prices above rational levels. Should we blame the private sector for taking advantage of all the cheap credit, or the Federal Reserve for supplying it?
http://www.safehaven.com/article-10559.htmIf Paulson can be so completely clueless regarding the Fed's role in the current debacle and in America's economic stumbles over the past two generations, why would anyone place any faith in his proposed remedies? In fact, an unaccountable and unelected Federal Reserve, which nonetheless has lately proven to be as politically craven as any two-bit politician, does not hold the keys to our economic revival. However, with its increased willingness to rescue the big financial firms from their own excesses, perhaps Paulson sees an expanded Fed as the best way to ensure the continued prosperity of his former pals on Wall Street
Indeed. It really could get that bad -- there is no obvious driver for recovery.
On topic: the S&P carpet looked awful and I saw some EW site claim the DOW is about to break a 34 year trend.
Any want to pick a direction for Monday? My pick is: look out below!
=Whiskers;305826]Talking about obvious drivers... one thing about this oil bubble, dare I call it that... is that there are no fuel shortages behind the sharp price rises. Quite the contrary, everyone seems to be pretty well supplied.
Seems to add weight to the artificial, speculator driven scenario
Interesting that all the major fuel co's seem to be saying the prices are artifically high.
Regardless of whether oil prices retreat back below $100 tomorrow, I think the damage has already been done in terms of people changing their habits and lifestyle to reduce their demand for oil. That is what the Saudi's are seriously worried about.
The other twits like Chavez nationalising industry and the Iranians are so short focused on domestic grandstanding that the damage will be done to demand for oil before they wake up and their likely response will likely be to screw down supply further accelerating the conversion to alternatives.
If a whiff of tougher regulation of commodity markets comes out of the weekend summit, in the name of international economic and political stability, then I reckon speculators holding contracts will be falling over each other to unload them.
It's being seriously considered by some US lawmakers keen to reel in the renegades in other industries like they are doing with the property and finance sectors.
Again, I feel there is just too much international political will to kill off the high price of oil for nothing to come out of the weekend summit. Given that oil has taken over from the credit crisis and is at the heart of emerging (hyper) inflation concerns, if the right announcement comes out on monday... it could just as well be more a case of watch out above.
Oil is just a part of the credit crisis, as is debt, food and the lack in the western world of value adding production.
Oil: Speculation or demand?
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- "Speculation," a dirty word across America as Wall Street traders take the blame for record oil and gasoline prices, drew more attention Friday from Congress as three Democratic House members introduced yet another bill attempting to limit activity.
To underline his case, Rep. Bart Stupak, D-Mich., said speculators now control 71% of oil on the market. That means only 29% control the physical oil being traded, down from 61% eight years ago.
Stupak blamed loosely regulated trading markets with numerous loopholes for the ease that traders have to buy and sell crude.
As a result, Stupak introduced legislation with the support of two other Democratic Congressmen to close loopholes that allow oil to be traded electronically in unregulated oil markets. The bill would also regulate other methods that Stupak claims oil traders use to avoid federal oversight.
"We can eliminate a major avenue that traders use to avoid oversight," said Stupak at a press conference Friday. "It's time for Congress to close the Enron loophole and lower our gas and diesel prices by 50%."
Many in Congress have suggested that closing a provision in the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 that critics call the "Enron loophole," after the energy trading company whose bankruptcy was the centerpiece of the corporate scandals early this decade. The provision allows oil futures to be traded in markets outside of the jurisdiction of the Commodities Futures Trading Commission.
Stupak, the chair of a House Energy and Commerce subcommittee, has pledged to investigate regulation of speculation further in a hearing on Monday.
Congress is currently awash in nine different bills - including Friday's proposal - that attempt to limit the role of speculators. Several have bipartisan support, but only one was co-sponsored by a Republican.
Proposals have included requiring foreign exchanges to provide more information about crude oil trades, limiting the number of contracts speculators are allowed to hold, increasing the amount of money speculators need to put up to buy an oil contract, and removing speculators from the market entirely and limiting trade to just producers and consumers.
Opposition against regulation mounts
Traders have lashed out against some of the lawmakers' proposals, such as banning speculation in some markets, saying that would only result in oil trading shifting to even less-regulated areas.
Stupak countered by saying the new proposed legislation is "the most comprehensive approach" that has yet been offered. He suggests closing all loopholes, including bilateral out-of-market trades, foreign trades on the InterContinental Exchange, swaps, and hedging exemptions. As a result, he believes excessive speculation will be stopped by complete oversight of the markets.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/20/new..._legislation/index.htm?postversion=2008062209
Yes, but the spike in oil has severely compounded those effects in the markets. I think it has been demonstrated that there are now a number of 'funds' out there with huge financial resources and quite capable of influencing the market, especially where little or no regulation and/or public knowledge or disclosure of the participants are.
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Invest in energy and the resources that are associated with it. They will get more valuable as money gets worthless.
Speculators can only influence the market in the short term. Sooner or later, usually sooner, the law of supply and demand takes over.
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