I'm a (wannabe) Prop Trader

kid hustlr said:

So this month hasn't started great for me. These day's a full size 'tick' is worth about 1k and I think after brokerage I'll be circa -2k on the month at this stage. So it's by no means a disaster but at the same time throw the software + desk fees on top of that and it can start to build pretty quickly, especially when I had my eyes set on getting paid this month.

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Really stupid question. What's 1 full size tick? From 95 to 96? Or 95.000 to 95.025? Or something else?

mate loving this thread. As a uni student looking to get into prop trading, this will really help keep up the good work!

skc said:

Really stupid question. What's 1 full size tick? From 95 to 96? Or 95.000 to 95.025? Or something else?

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91 to 92.

in the ten years it's '2 half ticks' so say 95.835 to 95.845

I was going to post another 'update' so to speak but there hasn't been much to report in recent days.

There's been a little bit of life in the market lately but I just haven't been able to capture any of it and truth be told I feel I'm really struggling lately. Confidence is quite low and at the moment everything I seem to do is wrong.

I know this thread started off on a really good tone about how I felt like I was 'turning a corner' but truth be told I'm just not sure. If I sit down and analyse my results and my trades, like I mean really analyse, I wonder how much of the last few months is luck? how much is just positive variance?

A lot of things going through my head recently - its part and parcel of not doing well and I could really go into a heap of detail if I wanted to but there's not much point.

End of the day I'm just going to stick with my plan and trade ideas for the next few weeks, give it my all and try to get our of this rut.

kid hustlr said:

I was going to post another 'update' so to speak but there hasn't been much to report in recent days. There's been a little bit of life in the market lately but I just haven't been able to capture any of it and truth be told I feel I'm really struggling lately. Confidence is quite low and at the moment everything I seem to do is wrong. I know this thread started off on a really good tone about how I felt like I was 'turning a corner' but truth be told I'm just not sure. If I sit down and analyse my results and my trades, like I mean really analyse, I wonder how much of the last few months is luck? how much is just positive variance? A lot of things going through my head recently - its part and parcel of not doing well and I could really go into a heap of detail if I wanted to but there's not much point. End of the day I'm just going to stick with my plan and trade ideas for the next few weeks, give it my all and try to get our of this rut.

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Are you able to identify specific areas of concerns and positives?

For example the following areas:
- psychology - anything?
- clarity with your setups
- clarity with your trade management
- ability to 'read' the broader market direction
- ability to limit risk in trades
- letting trades run
- etc...

I think it's very important to be clear on the specifics. Rather than just being in a general slump, what is working well? What isn't ? What repeated mistakes are you making? Work on eliminating them.

pavilion103 said:

Are you able to identify specific areas of concerns and positives?

For example the following areas:
- psychology - anything?
- clarity with your setups
- clarity with your trade management
- ability to 'read' the broader market direction
- ability to limit risk in trades
- letting trades run
- etc...

I think it's very important to be clear on the specifics. Rather than just being in a general slump, what is working well? What isn't ? What repeated mistakes are you making? Work on eliminating them.

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Good post Pav. You are right. You cannot work on "being a better trader" or "trading well" just as you cannot say "I'm going to be a better person". It means nothing. You have to really drill down and actually work on something to improve it, something specific, while still staying on point with stuff you have previously nailed down.

pavilion103 said:

Are you able to identify specific areas of concerns and positives?

For example the following areas:
- psychology - anything?
- clarity with your setups
- clarity with your trade management
- ability to 'read' the broader market direction
- ability to limit risk in trades
- letting trades run
- etc...

I think it's very important to be clear on the specifics. Rather than just being in a general slump, what is working well? What isn't ? What repeated mistakes are you making? Work on eliminating them.

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In some parts I'll go into detail, in other parts I won't. Partly because I doubt anyone who doesn't trade the curve day in and day out would understand, and partly because its not my place to reveal 'secrets' - however good or bad they may be - from others who have taught me.

Psychology is definitely something I need to work on. As I've said before my standard style of trading has been scalping. It's a fast style of trading and one where if it goes against me I'm out. I'm now trying to transition into a more medium/longer term type trader because:
a. scalping is very difficult at the moment and
b. they give you more 'room' to let you play an idea or a concept and if trades initially go against you than that's ok (although not ideal).

Making a change is always going to take time, so the execution and psychology side of things is something I need to work on.

'Clarity with my set ups' 'Clarity with trade management' are similar to above. It's a little slow at the moment as Im adjusting my craft. these are not my major areas of concern right now though.

- ability to 'read' the broader market direction
I'm comfortable with this.

- ability to limit risk in trades
As above, my INABILITY to limit risk is why I'm making the adjustments I am.

- letting trades run
Definitely something I need to work on. In all aspects.

Truth be told a lot of my trading is/was my ability to read the depth and identify little ways of taking out consistent small profits. Lately this technique has just been blown out of the water and right now I feel like I'd be having more success trading my ideas/views/concepts rather than trading on what I see on a minute to minute basis in the ladder.

Trembling Hand said:

Good post Pav. You are right. You cannot work on "being a better trader" or "trading well" just as you cannot say "I'm going to be a better person". It means nothing. You have to really drill down and actually work on something to improve it, something specific, while still staying on point with stuff you have previously nailed down.

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I should clarify. As above there are some specific areas of my trading I won't go into. Partly because I don't want to and partly because its not my place.

I'm sure you understand, you aren't going to go around telling everyone on a forum how or why you made a certain trade.

---

With respect to the bolded - that's how I'm viewing it. Every now and then I'll get a day where I wouldn't want to be doing anything else other than scalping. I'll trade that accordingly. It's just at the moment these days aren't occurring as often as they have been in the last 8 months.

Interested to get some regular updates if you're keen to share. Interested to see how you progress in the coming weeks.

pavilion103 said:

Interested to get some regular updates if you're keen to share. Interested to see how you progress in the coming weeks.

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Yeah same. If you get a chance it would be good to hear what happens after you get through the traineeship stage and initially start in the office. Is there any more training, or just sim with some advice from a mentor or something?

It's hard when you get to a certain level to take the next step and go on with things. You think that when you find that edge it will be all smooth sailing, but it is just the beginning. I posted a thread a while ago trying to find a mentor to pay to help me out a bit with some more advanced stuff but got no response. I decided to put myself out there a bit and started a blog this week to detail a bit what I do in the hope I will get some feedback and/or an exchange of ideas from people who may be at a similar or higher level than me.

http://theasiansession.blogspot.com.au/

Would be good to get any feedback/advice from any of you guys if you ever have the time to read a post or two.

havaiana said:

Yeah same. If you get a chance it would be good to hear what happens

after you get through the traineeship stage and initially start in the office. Is there any more training,

or just sim with some advice from a mentor or something?

It's hard when you get to a certain level to take the next step and go on with things. You think that

when you find that edge it will be all smooth sailing, but it is just the beginning. I posted a thread a

while ago trying to find a mentor to pay to help me out a bit with some more advanced stuff but got

no response. I decided to put myself out there a bit and started a blog this week to detail a bit what

I do in the hope I will get some feedback and/or an exchange of ideas from people who may be at a

similar or higher level than me.

http://theasiansession.blogspot.com.au/

Would be good to get any feedback/advice from any of you guys if you ever have the time to read a

post or two.

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Sorry mate I only just saw this.

I can't really comment on the first part of the question because I didn't really have a sim phase

online. I was lucky enough to have a friend who traded with this company, It just so happened they

were looking and it just so happened I fit the mould. I was on the sim for 2-3 months whilst he

decided if he thought I had 'the stuff'. he decided I did so he put me on my account and upped my

size over time.

its not training per say, if I want to know something or talk about something ill go talk to him. im in

a room full of traders, we share ideas (sometimes). I remember the first few months I used to print

stuff out and bug him all the time, lately not so much as I feel like I know the game a bit better. Point

im trying to make is I didn really go through any set regime, I am in a lucky enough position that I do

sit next to profitable traders every day.

I’ll have a look at your blog when I get a chance.

You’re right about constantly fighting. That’s what it is, just as you think its starting to turn

something happens and you’re back to square one. I maintain the fact that there is nothing wrong

with working a 9-5 and trading at night. Truth be told its probly the smart thing to do.

February disapoointing to me. Graph below. I made a couple of small errors and it cost me, it wasn’t

a disaster of a month but very disappointing. At the end of the day I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t a little

disolusioned and questioning my future. That being said I have this weird optimism and a ‘well you

may as well have a crack’ attitutude which I think is a really good thing. I’ll have a good go in March

and see what happens.

Graph itself doesn’t include desk fees so need to add that as well, its not a disaster as I said but I

wouldn’t want too many like this.



I could go into a lot of detail about a lot of things but at the end of the day I just want to execute my plans and trade well.

Next update the end of march.

Wow Hav looks like a serious blog. ill start from the beginning some stage over the weekend and try to catch up to speed.

kid hustlr said:

Wow Hav looks like a serious blog. ill start from the beginning some stage over the weekend and try to catch up to speed.

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Thanks for the the info

Don't bother with the blog, posts are super long and boring and mainly bitching about how crap I'm trading and how unlucky I am. It will make you dumber. I can sum it up pretty quickly:

Start blog, trade like crap for one and a half weeks, pull my head in last 2 or 3 days and run hot to come out barely in the green. That's about it.

As I posted in the other Prop Trading thread, I'll also include in this one to ensure no body misses out.

Just got this email for you Sydney & Gold Coast people:

Another month down. I'm tired so I won't go into a fully in depth post.

Quick Summary:

Trading:

- Traded much better, especially the last week or so and although I need to check I believe this is my best month ever. That's nothing to right home about but its nice to put February behind me with a nice finish in March.
- Adjusting my R:R has helped immensely. Not being so desperate to take profits when I'm in the money has led to a much better R:R overall. It also gives me the confidence to take more marginal trades because I think about the upside possibilities.
- Still need to work on how I manage longer term positions.
- I was so much more patient when in a trade and it helped immensely. Instead of being like 'OMG IM LONG THE BID HOW CAN I MAKE MONEY!' I'm finding myself being calmer and more in control. When I'm trading well my position is irrelevant, I find that I'm just monitoring the market and then thinking about how I can manage my position best rather just praying it goes my way. I'm letting things unfold much better rather than trading panicky.
- Still have a lot of work to do on the FTSE.

Personally:

- Still need to leave trading at work. Finding myself losing too much sleep not being able to turn off.
- I still let my trading mood influence my life mood too much.
- Taking the odd walk and getting out of the office has been very beneficial. If I'm not sitting at my desk desperate to trade I'm probably best off not being there at all.

Other:
- I watched this today. It's very good. I've seen the NO BS beginner course and it was very good. Just hearing about how clearly successful traders trade and think really helps me get 'in the mood'. One thing I should note though is that I need to be careful how much I take in. Sometimes If I'm listening to too many peoples views (be it reading it on this forum or in the office) it influences how I see the market. At the end of the day I have to trade my style and my way and back my bias.

http://www.pricesquawk.com/john-grady/

Summary:
- I can do this. I've come back from a hole twice now. The first time was the learning process and then having a few things 'click'. It took me 7 months and I Had a beginner rebate scheme on my side. The second time my hole lasted 1 month and I had no rebates coming my way. I took it all out of the market myself. Imagine if I keep building my size, imagine if I pick up a few ticks each week on the FTSE, imagine if I'm moving enough volume to also get SFE rebates. It's not that far off.
- Always be active. The best traders are active. This doesnt mean trading every price. This means constantly thinking about what I can be doing to make money.

I've got that Pricesquawk installed, its like music to my ears.

I always used PaceofTape so familiar with the concept but the PriceSquawk has better tones...

Keep up the good work Kid Hustlr - Its a process with ups and downs - persistence and gently correcting path is most of whats needed. It can take a year to get on top of the desk fees from talking to other guys with that challenge, but then it is only relative to the size you are playing with. ie will soon become peanuts. If you're on one of two possible tradedesk's I'm thinking of - with a guy with a big beard and probably the captain hindsight hat, go unplug his mouse before NFP

Trembling Hand - Would you be interested in doing a podcast interview down the track? Your wise words in this thread made me recall I used to read your blog years ago, or some forum discussion on how you went from a tent to trader. Correct me if I'm wrong.

CanOz - Glad you're liking the PS trial (and figured out how good it is for Pace) - let me know if can help with anything.

tx graham.

not with the firm you are thinking about I don't think but there's a few harry hindsights in this office also

grahamg said:

CanOz - Glad you're liking the PS trial (and figured out how good it is for Pace) - let me know if can help with anything.

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Thanks Graham....

Like i said i always used PaceofTape (free indicator) just to alert me when the tape was speeding up. Your indicator is interesting and kinda fun to play with but i could see it as a good learning tool.

This will most likely be my last post in this thread.

Although absolutely tiny I cut my first pay check at the end of April, some 13 months after I started. Whilst this by no means suggests that the only was is up, I feel this thread has run its course in that I don't personally feel I can get anything more out of posting updates.

For me personally now I feel as though I'm at that point where I have learned enough skills in this game to realise that there are ways to be profitable long term. Apart from really going into in depth styles of trading in the markets I trade and discussing possible ideas with guys watching these markets each day, theres not much for me to learn from a 'basics' point of view.

At the end of the day I think the factors which will ultimately decide whether i trundle along and eventually 'bleed out' or truly become successful at this to the point where I do it very lucratively for the rest of my life are as follows:

1. Having the drive to constantly bust my ass each month. Trading is like anything else, you get out what you put in. Put in good quality hours - always be thinking, always be trying something new, always look for the holy grail.
2. Having confidence in myself. It's funny how after a couple of good trades you're on top of the world and vica versa. For me, I keep a level head almost 99% of the time which is a good trait, but I need to keep up the aggresion @ all times. sometimes I can go into my shell when at the end of the day for me personally, I'm best to shake things off - be it good or bad - and then start firing again.