Humans are animals

dhukka said:

IMHO this is one of the problems in these kind of discussions - that there is an assumption on the part of humans that there is some meaning to life. To ask the questions: What is the meaning of life? Why are we here? etc. miss the point.

Why are we here? Irrelevant we are here. What is the meaning of life? Again irrelevant, life 'is' all you need to work out is how to 'be' (easier said than done)

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We obviously differ here dhukka. There IS a reason to live. The reason at it's most basic level is to survive. That's why we have all these hormones, instincts, and reproductive assets. If it was to just BE, then we wouldn't have any of this neat kit that allows us to propagate the species and to protect ourselves. Your argument to simply BE is flawed because if we attempted that, the turtles would be in control of the planet...

kennas said:

LOL. Yes, financially MUST be part of our word. I want a new plasma!!! he he.

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my teenage sons used to want a plasma - now they've set up a cheap second hand projector onto the entire wall - downstairs in what the boys call their "wild life sanctuary".

Now they want playmates instead

and yes - they are animals lol
and yes (howdy dhuk ) - they have found a meaning to living - something about a "full body experience", or "out of body experience", or "in body experience" - who knows - can hardly ever understand em anyways

hmm we are animals....

Ok well if we are then someone answer me this:

* A fox will sometimes kill another wild animal for food and sometimes just for pleasure.

* A human sometimes kills a wild animal for food and sometimes for conservation.

* A fox is passed as having "normal animal behaviour"

* A human will get criticized and be called a heartless person that has no respect for other creatures on earth.

So if we are suppose to be all animals then whats the difference?

Ageo said:

hmm we are animals....

Ok well if we are then someone answer me this:
* A fox will sometimes kill another wild animal for food and sometimes just for pleasure.
* A human sometimes kills a wild animal for food and sometimes for conservation.
* A fox is passed as having "normal animal behaviour"
* A human will get criticized and be called a heartless person that has no respect for other creatures on earth.
So if we are suppose to be all animals then whats the difference?

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what a foxy question there Ageo

PS last time I tried reasoning with a fox it bit me
last time I tried reasoning with a cruel human he kicked me .
not sure where you're going with that one Ageo

kennas said:

We obviously differ here dhukka. There IS a reason to live. The reason at it's most basic level is to survive. That's why we have all these hormones, instincts, and reproductive assets. If it was to just BE, then we wouldn't have any of this neat kit that allows us to propagate the species and to protect ourselves. Your argument to simply BE is flawed because if we attempted that, the turtles would be in control of the planet...

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Why do you assume that to 'BE' is to do nothing? Of course we procreate, protect our young and ensure our survival. That is the 'is'

Ageo said:

hmm we are animals....

Ok well if we are then someone answer me this:

* A fox will sometimes kill another wild animal for food and sometimes just for pleasure.

* A human sometimes kills a wild animal for food and sometimes for conservation.

* A fox is passed as having "normal animal behaviour"

* A human will get criticized and be called a heartless person that has no respect for other creatures on earth.

So if we are suppose to be all animals then whats the difference?

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Good points Ageo.

I think this type of approach to the argument was mentioned earlier in regard to humans having special capabilities, like empathy etc. We have a big brain, but can we fly? Or breath underwater? Our abilites are unique, but are they any more unique than an ant that can carry 2000 times it's body weight, or a spider that leap the human equivelant of 10km.

Maybe we aren't that special...

Or, maybe emotion is the difference, which has allowed our species to proliferate?

Assuming ants have no emotion, of course!!

dhukka said:

Why do you assume that to 'BE' is to do nothing? Of course we procreate, protect our young and ensure our survival. That is the 'is'

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Good point! Unfortunately I must leave this conversation, damn it! It's 8.30 Friday night in Lima and I'm going to see the Bourne something....catch you ron...cheers.

2020hindsight said:

my teenage sons used to want a plasma - now they've set up a cheap second hand projector onto the entire wall - downstairs in what the boys call their "wild life sanctuary".

Now they want playmates instead

and yes - they are animals lol
and yes (howdy dhuk ) - they have found a meaning to living - something about a "full body experience", or "out of body experience", or "in body experience" - who knows - can hardly ever understand em anyways

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Sure we can all invent reasons to live, we do it everyday to go on living, I'm talking about an all encompassing meaning for it all, you know, the 'ultimate question'. The answer which of course is 42.

kennas said:

Assuming ants have no emotion, of course!!

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Well thats what everyone assumes so they just kill them like theres no tomorrow. Why doesnt a cockroach get the same respect as a kangaroo? or a Rabbit? Surely all creatures of life have some emotion? right?

I mean im interested to hear peoples views on this that think we are animals (i also believe in someways we have evolved from animals).

Ageo said:

Well thats what everyone assumes so they just kill them like theres no tomorrow. Why doesnt a cockroach get the same respect as a kangaroo? or a Rabbit? Surely all creatures of life have some emotion? right?

I mean im interested to hear peoples views on this that think we are animals (i also believe in someways we have evolved from animals).

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agree that there are inconsistencies - I'm not a sufficiently pure Buddhist not to differentiate between moths ( that will eat my suit etc ) or the pet dog - the one I happily kill, the other I love.

nor do I hav any problem killing feral cats - some lady the other day making stew out of them lol - love it !! (like native birds are having enough probs staying alive - habitat, food , water etc )

but I posted elsewhere some scenes from an abattoir in China / Asia somewhere - killing and deskinning dogs. - no way jose.

no probs killing feral; pigs, but leave the elephants and the whales alone. (still - doesn't change my opinion that men are simply animals btw - just that they're inconsistent lol)

Like Zimmerman "I'm not a cynic , I'm a hypocrite" lol
"Creation Science 101" by Roy Zimmerman

dhukka said:

Sure we can all invent reasons to live, we do it everyday to go on living, I'm talking about an all encompassing meaning for it all, you know, the 'ultimate question'. The answer which of course is 42.

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lol - exactly
The greeks reasoned it "nothing changes - we are, therefore always were" (seriously paraphrased -forget where I found the rest (later) - the beach beckons

looking at the structure and evolution of the brain answers a lot of these questions. when you are talking about "emotion" you are looking at the actions of the amygdala. this is an old and basic part of brain physiology which evolved a very very long time ago in reptiles and which we still carry buried in the back of our heads.

"emotion" is just a chemical response by the amygdala to stimuli so it is nothing special in the animal kingdom, however our more highly developed frontal lobes give us the ability to analyse these emotions rather than just be subject to them.

the brain (and by extension, the central nervous system) has built up and evolved in layers, with each new layer augmenting the functions of the previous layers. we are just the latest revision in a long line of "Organic Brain 1.0" sharing the same brain stem design and function as the reptiles that flopped onto land all those years ago, including the amygdala, home of "fight or flight", "need" and "emotion". it is also an extremely cool design and reading about fight or flight responses bypassing the higher functions so we get the adrenaline dump before we have even registered the threat makes me marvel at the wonder of organic engineering.

from the first link -

The growth of the cerebral cortex accelerated further in man ´s immediate ancestors, and reached explosive proportions in the last million years of human history, culminating in the appearance of Homo Sapiens.

The primitive region in the brain, that held the circuits for the instinctive behavior of the reptile and the old mammal, was now completely enveloped by and buried within the human cerebral cortex.

Yet this ancient command post, relic of our distant past, is still active within us; it still vies with the cerebral cortex for control of the body, pitting the inherited programs of the old brain against the flexible responses of the new one.

Experiments suggest that parental feelings, source of some of the finest human emotion, still spring from these primitive, programmed areas of the brain that go back to the time of the old mammal, more than 100 million years ago.

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http://www.primatesociety.com/Into/survival/timeline/textEvol.html

http://faculty.ed.uiuc.edu/g-cziko/wm/05.html

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/kinser/Structure1.html#brainstem

so yes we are animals, just like all the other animals on the planet, sharing the same basic form, structure and function as all other organisms.

we have no higher "purpose" or "spirituality" than anything else, no special place on the planet, no reason to be, no god to answer to, but this freedom gives us the opportunity to make our own purpose and spirituality. we see examples of this in current revisions of "God", all of which are crap, but which are still stepping stones into the evolution of a greater purpose, that of becoming a good human with a balanced place in the greater order of family, community, country, planet, universe.

Animals are beasts, but men are monsters.

Bloveld said:

Animals are beasts, but men are monsters.

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Thats pretty informative

Do we have to necessarily be either spiritual or animal? I don't see why.
Clearly the drive for survival is going to be the basis for our existence, as Maslow - surely an archetypal humanist - described. But those basic needs having been met I think most of us are looking for "something more". I'm trying without success to find a word to substitute for spiritual which to me has religious/faith connotations.

Altruism: doesn't it exist when, e.g. someone spontaneously rushes into a burning house to save an occupant? Isn't that person instinctively reacting to the need to save a life? Or does he in fact, even momentarily, think before rushing in "Ah, if I pull this person out of a burning house I will receive much recognition and praise and will be called a hero". I doubt it.

Many of us do stuff to help other people in a less spontaneous environment. In this case, then yes, I think a part of it is to reinforce our own image of ourselves as good people, sort of makes up for the bits about ourselves that we dislike. But if the recipients of our actions genuinely benefit, then Idon't see any need to castigate ourselves for this part of our motivation.

Another reason many people willingly make contributions to others is a belief in the value of community. i.e. if we feel uncomfortable knowing there are people in our community who are struggling with their lives, emotionally and financially, then if we can do something to help hopefully that will strengthen the community as a whole. A few of us seem able to exist in a state of semi-isolation, but most of us are drawn to that tribal instinct of needing to be part of a group.

Animals: imo completely wrong to suggest that they lack emotion. I guess most of my experience has been with dogs. They can demonstrate not just love and loyalty, but real empathy. And many breeds have an astonishing capacity to reason. And who hasn't seen a beaten dog cowering in total fear. Dogs are quick to respond to the emotions they sense in us. Cats to a lesser extent but they still do it. Not sure about insects etc but don't see why not.

Disarray: interesting post, thank you. I read some research recently which suggested that people addicted to various substances had a physiologically different area of the brain. What they were unable to say was whether this was caused by the drug/alcohol use, or whether this area of the brain (which was that involved in decision making) was deficient and thus rendered them vulnerable to addictions.

Interesting thread, Kennas.

kennas said:

All our actions are only in aid of our own personal benefit to achieve this aim. There is no true thing such as altruism, or self sacrifice.

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With all due respect to your beliefs Kennas (and I'm glad there are people who ponder such things at great length, so no disrespect intended at all) I cannot possibly agree with that last sentence. There are thousands of examples of self-sacrifice and altruism. Although wartime heroics (in terms of self sacrifice) would be the most obvious, I have met many people who have given up financial security, their social lives, friendship circles etc to care for sick relatives. Thousands of Australians olunteer every day for no benefit to themselves (and yes, obviously many more do so to feel purposeful).

kennas said:

The ultimate aim of all our actions is to seek benefit for ourselves, and to survive.

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If we are all animals, one thing is for certain - we are pack animals. Often our actions benfit other rather than ourselves.

kennas said:

Are we any more special than just being an 'animal'?

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Back to your original theme, we are the top of the food chain for starters

I fear your disenchantment with spirituality (rather than just the set dogmas of religion) seem to come from a lack of "proof". Perhaps reading the studies fo Dr Michael Newton might lead you to a slightly different path of introspection. That would prove to be as close to a scientific methodology of spiritual life beyond this one as we could possibly get.

Cheers

Great video above.

I heard a story once of a poacher - He shot a monkey/orangutan (cant remember which), it was a mother with a baby - before it died it walked towards the poacher carrying the baby with its arms in the air and offered it to the person who just shot her, to look after it.
The poacher became a conservationist immediately after, he recognised they have emotion etc and just wanted to care for its young.

We are definately animails, its a fact. Just what type of animalare we, Again it is our ability that 'seperates' us.

Reminds me the part in the matrix about how we closest resmble a virus haha

btw - I am an athiest and a vegan. I do treat every animal with same respect.
same as a human.

dhukka said:

Again with the why, forget about it wayne, it'll just do your head in, get on living.

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Yes that's exactly what I was getting at, clumsily.

I no longer wonder why we're here and just try to enjoy the ride. That does not preclude a journey of discovery however, whether spiritual, philosophical, of the planet, whatever.

I notice that yielding to strictly animal instincts does not make me very happy, while an interest in more nobler ideal does.

I liked the Dalai Lama's answer when questioned as to the purpose of life:

"I don't know" LOL

barnz2k said:

Great video above.


btw - I am an athiest and a vegan. I do treat every animal with same respect.
same as a human.

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Barn good to see, may i ask when you get insects in your house (cockroaches, ants, mozzies etc..) do you kill them or treat them with the same respect?

barnz2k said:

I heard a story once of a poacher - He shot a monkey/orangutan (cant remember which), it was a mother with a baby - before it died it walked towards the poacher carrying the baby with its arms in the air and offered it to the person who just shot her, to look after it.
The poacher became a conservationist immediately after, he recognised they have emotion etc and just wanted to care for its young.

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hell that is such a great story man

I also remember a study of a colony of chimps - where a spoilt and EXTREEMELY demanding youngster just would not give its mum a rest - just a constant-demand -machine -

and sure enough its mum dies younger that she should have.
I thought to myself - gee whiz - no way are any of our kids gonna do that to me or the missus