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How NOT to trade a speculative miner

MichaelD

Not fooled by randomness
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I would like to share with you one of the most egregious trading errors I have made in a long time. It is my belief that we learn little from our big wins on the market, but learn much from our errors. It is in this spirit that I present the tale of WMT, Western Metals, a speculative mining company. If you can view the chart as I walk through this, it will help make more sense of things.

A quick note - the system discussed has been designed to behave in a particular manner and has to date in all market conditions it has been tested and traded in demonstrated a very satisfactory positive expectancy with a very smooth equity curve.

Day 0 - The Initial Trading Signal 5-Mar-2007
One of the systems I trade is a short term system which uses a breakout as its entry signal. WMT signalled an entry on the 5th March 2007 when it closed at 0.20 on increased volume. This was during the depths of the recent correction, so there were very few bullish signals around at the time, and I was in the process of closing the 3rd loss in a row.

This system utilizes a profit target, so my entry conditions/stop loss were;

Close 0.20
Stop 0.18
Target 0.22
Position size 0.25% risk

Day 1 - The Initial Entry 6-Mar-2007
This system calls for an entry on Open the next day, so on 6th March 2007 we lined up at the entry. Unusually large volumes on both the buy and sell side were noted, and the IOpen kept going further and further up. My wife executes our trading signals - the idea is to decrease the risk of trading errors due to emotional factors on my part. I happened to be home before the open, so she called me to the trading screen - the Open was at 0.225, beyond our target price.

This circumstance had arisen once before during system paper trading, and after analyzing that trade we had written into our plan that in such circumstances we would enter the trade on the Open and not enter a sell target, managing the trade merely with an end-of-day trailing stop.

We entered the position at 0.225. We were both excited at this point, and I said "let's day trade this one - trail a stop 2 ticks below the price action". We watched the price rise and then quickly fall back down enough to trigger this 2 tick stop. We exited at 0.23 a few minutes after entry.

Right at the end of the day, WMT saw a surge in price/volume to close the day at 0.27.

Day 1 - End of Day Scan
Again WMT came up on our Breakout scans. Quite angry at myself for only taking 1 tick out of the day's action, I again set up WMT for purchase;

Close 0.27
Stop 0.225
Target 0.315
Position size 0.25% risk - the position size was less than 1/2 of yesterday's due to the increased volatility.

Day 2 - The Second Entry 7-Mar-2007
Again the opening was a frenzy of activity, with the Open at 0.315. Again I resolved to day trade this with a 2 tick stop as opposed to following my plan.

Entry was at 0.315. It rose to 0.32. It dropped to 0.31. 'Sell' I said, and my wife began to enter the sell order. It ticked up to 0.315. 'Hang on a second' said I. 'Let's hold on and see what happens. I'll take things from here.'

It ticked down....0.31...0.305...0.30. 'I'll trade it like I should have traded yesterday's action' said I and did not close the position.

By the end of the day, it had gone down to 0.25 with a low of 0.24.

I moved the stop up to 0.245.

Day 3 - Only one direction for this baby 8-Mar-2007
Market depth showed an overwhelming number of sellers as opposed to buyers, all jumping on the slightest bit of an uptick. It continued to decline, closing at 0.23.

Throughout the day, I was on the verge of buying more WMT thinking that it had reached the bottom. I figured I could rescue this trade gone bad. The temptation was enormous, but so was my internal struggle - I'd realized I'd already violated my trading plan twice, and I was aware of the perils of trying to catch a falling knife. In the end I sucessfully resisted temptation.

Day 3 - Clearly Violated the Stop
It took a lot of discipline, but we resolved to exit this on the open the next day rather than make the further mistake of "bottom drawing" it or hoping for a rebound.

Day 4 - Out with slightly less damage than expected 9-Mar-2007
Once again bottom pickers were out in force on the Open, allowing us an exit at 0.25. From there, WMT continued south to close the day at 0.22. Loss: 1.75R.

Discussion
1. Trading this according to our predefined plan for this circumstance would have seen us enter at 0.225 and exit at 0.25, a win of 1.2R.

2. We violated our plan initially because of greed - 'let's day trade this and make a lot of money'. Intead, we made a little bit of money. We violated our plan a second time before of fear - 'we buggered this one up yesterday, let's not bugger it up again'. We buggered it up again. This is all the more disappointing since we have not made either a trading error or violated our plan in a very long time. This is a perfect example of cutting one's winners short and letting one's losses run, a cardinal trading error.

3. Who's fault was this? WMT had all the hallmarks of a manipulated pump and dump, but the fault lies entirely with me for not following my plan which was thought out away from the immediate stress of the market to account for exactly this circumstance. The recent drawdown in this system probably played a part - the emotion of wanting a big winner to get the system out of drawdown was very strong.

4. My wife and I discussed how this panned out at some length, and concluded that we would continue to trade the signals presented and doubly resolved to follow our trading plan no matter what. We duly entered a trade again today (9-Mar-2007) exactly according to our plan...and were rewarded with a 1.4R win.

5. The one thing that saved us from really catastrophic loss was the very small position size we held on the second entry. Considering the huge sizes of the parcels being trading in this baby (pretty much its entire share registry was being turned over daily), a lot of people will have been sucked in and will have lost substantial amounts of money on this.

6. Emotion has absolutely no place in trading. It will make you buy and sell at the worst possible times.

7. The market has taught us a lesson and we have heeded its teaching.
 
Mate my story was not fictional but factual, I got set at 19.5 cents on the 5th after seeing my charts but I was pissed off that i did not see the top at 30c but instead my floating stop got me out at 24cents still a handy 20% up on 2 days but could a been 50%

Trade with real money its more fun
 
My story with this one is more one of missed opportunity.

I got a buy signal for it back at the start of January. Bought in on the 3rd for 8.6 cents, but then sold on 11th for 7.9 cents, not because I'd got a sell signal, but because the index had started dropping on the 3rd and was consolidating around the 11th, so I decided to take the loss before it broke support and plummeted into the abyss.

However, the lowest close after that, a few days later, was 7.8 cents, after which it started taking off. Even if I was still holding now, I'd be up 250% or more.

They say you can't pick tops and bottoms, but they're wrong: I pick them with very high accuracy. Tops are just after I buy, bottoms just after I sell...

GP
 
MichaelD said:
This system utilizes a profit target, so my entry conditions/stop loss were;

Close 0.20
Stop 0.18
Target 0.22
Position size 0.25% risk

MIchael thanks for sharing that with us.
I too have many such mistakes, and i mean MANY.

Just curious, is it worth taking a trade if the potential return is 1R?
I mean, over the long term, this would mean you have to get >50% winners to make your system profitable, net of brokerage. (do you?)
 
Michael - congratulations for being brave enough to put that up.

Can I ask a few questions?

Why/how would trading according to the pre-defined plan have had you enter at 22.5 and exit at 25? I thought the plan was enter at 20 and exit at 22 or stop out at .18


In your opinion, what was the biggest mistake in the whole exercise?

Also, of each trading decision (sell, don't sell, don't hit stop, hold etc.) which ones looking back would you do differently?

Do you think you would have behaved differently with a larger ('real money') positon size and if so, in what way?

Was there other non-technical criteria that made you particularly bullish on this stock on the day (e.g. announcement pending, announcement released, report released, news article, fundamental analysis, post on a forum etc.)

Also if I could make one comment - the use of the phrase 'I'll day trade this one' seems to have been an excuse to be irrational - quite the opposite of day trading.
 
nizar said:
Just curious, is it worth taking a trade if the potential return is 1R?
I mean, over the long term, this would mean you have to get >50% winners to make your system profitable, net of brokerage. (do you?)
The trailing stop makes the reward:risk worthwhile by aggressively culling non performers. Actual results to date with the system are;

Reward To Risk: 1.4:1
Win %: 60%
Average Days in Trade: 5.5

(although I suspect they will be a bit worse for a little bit once I account for the last week of trading)

ric371 said:
Trade with real money its more fun
These are real trades.
 
cuttlefish said:
Why/how would trading according to the pre-defined plan have had you enter at 22.5 and exit at 25? I thought the plan was enter at 20 and exit at 22 or stop out at .18
The plan states that if a position opens above its profit target (a rare occurrence) that no target is used and the trade is managed only with a trailing stop, so I would have exited on Open today at 0.25 after the trailing stop got hit yesterday.
cuttlefish said:
In your opinion, what was the biggest mistake in the whole exercise?
Allowing emotion to override my trading plan.
cuttlefish said:
Also, of each trading decision (sell, don't sell, don't hit stop, hold etc.) which ones looking back would you do differently?
The initial sell as that was the one that commenced the trading plan violation cascade.
cuttlefish said:
Do you think you would have behaved differently with a larger ('real money') positon size and if so, in what way?
This *is* my real money position size for this short term system. The size of a 1R loss in this system is at a level where I can cope with it without worrying too much about it. It allows me to make errors like this one whilst learning how this system trades with real money without putting much of a dent in my trading capital which is mainly deployed in a long term trend following system.
cuttlefish said:
Was there other non-technical criteria that made you particularly bullish on this stock on the day (e.g. announcement pending, announcement released, report released, news article, fundamental analysis, post on a forum etc.)
Nope, just a greater than usual desire for a winner.
cuttlefish said:
Also if I could make one comment - the use of the phrase 'I'll day trade this one' seems to have been an excuse to be irrational - quite the opposite of day trading.
Yep, guilty as charged.

As mentioned, I've made absolutely no trading errors or plan violations for the year to date. The reward has been a steadily increasing equity curve.
 
MichaelD said:
Nope, just a greater than usual desire for a winner.

Yeah I've been having the opposite of that lately, which is much more dangerous, and thats the fear off loss.

But can you blame me after coming back from interstate work on the weekend, setting everything up on monday, buying several stocks that met my entry criteria on Tuesday, and then getting the biggest fall in 5 years on the next day :banghead:

I mean, what were the chances! :banghead:

It really made me lose my confidence - bad. And thats exactly why i hesitated, back in november/december i had a string off 11 losses in a row and i didnt even notice, took the 12th with confidence (and it ended up being a big winner), but these days, :banghead:
 
Michael,
You may have learnt one lesson but there are many thousands to be learnt. I am not a believer in systems but research. WMT announced the BHP JV when the Indices began to fall after the China fall. WMT was one of the positives on the day. Got in at 17c but already had parcels at 7c and 9c, because I had done my own research. Unfortunately the day traders had picked it up early and by the end of trade on Tuesday it closed at 27c. with that type of volume bids went in early pre open the next day. Bids at 32c, a week earlier I had it 17c, sell sell sell. It was a bit of a blood bath really. I could have made a few bucks that morning, but I am a long term holder. Alot of people got burnt but the stock could not hold the momentum.

Still a holder though
 
That was a very informative look at those trades, thanks Michael.

Your post showed a humility and honesty which is rare on chat forums.

I guess if I had resolved to post every failed trade that was caused by not following the pre-detemined plan then I would have made a few hundred posts by now!
 
nizar said:
...buying several stocks that met my entry criteria on Tuesday, and then getting the biggest fall in 5 years on the next day :banghead:

I mean, what were the chances! :banghead:
About 1 in 1,800 by your own figures. :) Ah, Analysis Paralysis. This is the major reason we "got back on the horse" so quickly, so as not to lose our rhythm. It was particularly nice that the market rewarded us with one of our best trades in a long time.
robandcoll said:
You may have learnt one lesson but there are many thousands to be learnt. I am not a believer in systems but research.
Good on ya, Rob. You keep on researching. I'll keep on trading. (No sarcasm intended.)

I'm not interested in a company's long term prospects or fundamentals. With this system I'm interested in capturing a big enough chunk of short term price fluctuations in a consistent enough manner to provide a regular cash flow.
 
nizar said:
Yeah I've been having the opposite of that lately, which is much more dangerous, and thats the fear off loss.

On the contrary Nizar...this mentality will ensure your survival.

In my philosophy (borrowed heavily from Remeniscences of a Stock Operator), FEAR OF LOSS should be permitted to reign supreme right up until the point in time where you enter the trade. This should ensure that you apply prudent money management and understand (in advance) where a worst case scenario outcome will leave you. Max loss of $$$ in other words.
 
Michael.

I'm from a long background of Systems analysis and background as you know.

But for what its worth and DIRECTLY related to the topic,its my view that the crowds that trade smalls are changing so rapidly and diversely that to have them satisfy criteria---such as that stipulated in a system--- is a big ask as most programable technical indicators are behind the crowd action to a point of being to slow.

UNLESS the system was in a much lower timeframe such as 5 or say 15 min bars.

Id be interested and suprised if you didnt have significantly better results systemising smaller timeframes.
OR heaven forbid trading in a discretionary manner with a heightened ability to read crowd behaviour in small cps.---but thats not you.

PS ROB

Once you get your head around price movement being crowd behaviour and the study of it is profitable--the need to pour over fundamentals disappears.
As does the question---do others see what I see in these fundamentals?

Rather than waiting for the crowd or infact disagreeing with it--- you can actually know when to join it or when to leave it.

Very long term of course crowd behaviour is not as important.
 
cheers for the responses Michael. From my independant observer standpoint, of all the mistakes you made the biggest one to my mind was not adhering to the stop on day 2. It seems that the stop was just ignored. At the very minimum it should have been widened not just ignored. In a day trading situation a discretionary decision to widen the stop could have been "justified" by some factor such as visible support on the intraday chart or some aspect of price/volume/time action etc.

But to my mind that is the point where you risked significant loss - and protection of capital is the first priority.

I also disagree with viewing the first day as a failure even though you only made a small profit.

Its likely the late rise to .27 just before the close was deliberate manipulation designed to pull in people for the dump on the next days open. It would be interesting to look at vwap on the day (and vwap can also be a useful guide as to how well you went on the day in terms of your own buy and sell prices).

Any sharp intraday move well away from vwap with no new information should probably be viewed with some suspicion - particularly if it comes out of nowhere when things have quietened down. (could of course be a sign of news to come but more often than not seems to be manipulation).


(and yes I know everything is obvious in hindsight so hats off to you again for putting it up there.).
 
tech/a said:
Very long term of course crowd behaviour is not as important.

Over the long term The % variation in returns washes out and narrow to the average

Like a large cone narrowing the further along ..

However the variation in the dollars that We end up with is totally the opposite..

This is like a cone which continues to widen the further along in time We hold.

So For maximum dollars gained the crowds behavior is still important because We still have to make an entry at some time and those times will have a huge
effect on the dollars gained at the end of the day..

The price you pay determines your future return
esp in long term positions..

If you are going to buy and HOLD something
When you buy that something is the only thing you have control of.
The longer you hold it your % returns approach everyone else's..
BUT The number of $$$ that you hold will be hugely significantly different.

Off topic to the thread .. But pertinent to Techs comment..

Or does the crowd.. hence timing .. ever not matter..



motorway
 
Hi Michael, This trade obviously annoyed you because you stepped outside your trade "boundaries", but your willingness to share your "wrong doings" is admirable .............. Bottom line; You are obviously an extremely disciplined trader (I take my hat off to you). You can afford to share this misfortune because the multitude of your trades are carried out with a concrete plan (which obviously works) ............... I think what you are trying to teach us here is .......... a) Find a plan that works ..... and b) Stick to it, cause if you don't, you may get burned ................... Congratulations and thanks for your ongoing good advice, Barney.
 
Or does the crowd.. hence timing .. ever not matter..

In view of your question I think it appropriate to adjust my statement to.

Short term crowd behaviour is of little importance to very long term crowd behaviour.

Meaning that to crowd behaviour displayed 3 yrs ago is of little importance today.Todays behaviour is of course relevent to today.

In other words I feel that a specific time point in judging/analysing/reacting to,taking action based upon--- crowd behaviour has an expiry date.

However
I think crowd behavior can also be predicted if the same crowd behaviour is displayed.

(1) Time and again in the short term
(2) Or as seen in like events in past history.
(3) Or as a consequence of a chain of events.
 
tech/a said:
Id be interested and suprised if you didnt have significantly better results systemising smaller timeframes...

---but thats not you.
Totally agree. I do not desire to engage the market in real time yet - I don't have the absolute confidence in the system yet that is needed to take this next step.

Once I'm satisfied that this system performs as expected in all markets as an EOD system, I will then turn my focus to improving the entry/exit mechanism to try and improve the reward/risk ratio. This will most likely require engaging the market intraday in some form. In fact, a CFD variant of this system manages to stretch out the reward:risk ratio very nicely whilst still keeping all decisions and orders EOD.

However, I digress, as this isn't really about the specifics of the system being traded.
 
True you do digress.
However on the topic of how not to trade a speculative Miner still pertinent.

I would argue that systematic trading of a spectulative miner is one way NOT TO.
 
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