Growth without reason

[MrBurns]

Dunno if anyone agrees with this but I think a lot of our problems arise from the culture of needing to increase profits every year.

Once a company reaches a certain point I cant see the logic in pushing for more profit at the expense of the integrity of the company itself.

Take Telstra, no service, less employees just to increase profit.
Voice recognition software to save the cost of employing people ???

Trams - Trains - now privatized - less service, less maintenance, more delays, less staff for security and supervision.

Utilities, gas water electricity all privatised same scenario, less service, less reliability.

People are sacrificed for profit, sacked for profit, this leads to a soulless shell of a company, that does what ? Trim more to make more profit.

Banks, you cant speak to anyone anymore just a call routing system infuriating auto service.

The whole thing is based around creating wealth for shareholders and to hell with the employees that made the company in the first place.

The spiral for more profit must be stopped at reasonable HUMAN levels, then shareholders will get steady returns, if they want growth get a tattslotto ticket or a different stock thats in a growth faze

I'm fed up with this system it sux and I hope it crashes heavily.

 

[CAB SAV]

Re: Growth without reason......

Yep, It's all about size. Keep telling my wife-size doesn't matter.

 

[numbercruncher]

Yes one of the major faults of capitalism, addicted to growth, right up till the point of self cannibalisation ! stoopid really ...

 

[motorway]

The opposite of growth is death

Staying still is going backwards

Growth is natural

does life have "reason"

growth in nature is constrained by competition , predator prey relations
and limit of resources...

The destructive wildness of capitalism
is almost solely laid at the doorstep of excessive debt..

If people could only buy houses with their own money
would you ever have wild cycles of boom and bust ?

Hymen Minsky -- There are stable debt regimes that build sustainable growth
And then there are regimes that destroy growth...

Supply creates it own demand......like a lush pasture will grow a herd of cattle

Unstable debt regimes only build artificial demand that moves ahead of possible supply.............

So we overstock the pasture , lose the top soil and need to let the land lie fallow ( deleveraging )

What is something worth ( consumer ) what the bank will lend me to buy it !
How much can be lent ( Bank ) What did it last sell for...

such is the spiral of destruction


Growth is relentless ( try and stop growing it is called death )
is natural

shedding jobs is a good
because better ones are created

anyone still want to be a Victorian chimney sweep ?

debt does have a proper place
but only certain regimes
and not when we all need to do it
such that there are no longer savers to lend.

(Past problem with interest rates ? )

motorway

 

[kitehigh]

I have to agree with you.

I read "Growth Fetish", by Clive Hamilton a couple of year ago now and found it to be an excellent read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_Fetish

"The thesis of the book is that the policies of unfettered capitalism pursued by the west for the last 50 years has largely failed, since the underlying purpose of the creation of wealth is happiness, and Hamilton contends that people in general are no happier now than 50 years ago, despite the huge increase in personal wealth. In fact, he suggests that the reverse is true. He states that the pursuit of growth has become a fetish, in that it is seen as a universal magic cure for all of society's ills. Hamilton also proposes that the pursuit of growth has been at a tremendous cost in terms of the environment, erosion of democracy, and the values of society as a whole, as well as not delivering the hoped for increases in personal happiness. One result is that we, as a society, have become obsessed with materialism and consumerism. Hamilton's catchphrase "People buy things they don't want, with money they don't have, to impress people they don't like" [1] neatly sums up his philosophy on consumerism."

 

[mayk]

Nice reply motorway.

 

[andrew08]

There are some very interesting articles in new scientist this week on this topic.

http://www.newscientist.com/home.ns

I don't see growth as a bad thing but the way we know it at the moment really is unsustainable.

 

[[t..o..m]]

Death has as much importance as growth does man. Everything grows and dies its the way life is. You can't stop growth, just like you can't stop death.

Taking that view, the economic turmoil we are experiencing had to happen.

 

[MrBurns]

Death has as much importance as growth does man. Everything grows and dies its the way life is. You can't stop growth, just like you can't stop death.

Taking that view, the economic turmoil we are experiencing had to happen.

Dont think you can apply that to business, the ideology of needing to add 10 or 20% to the bottom line every year is flawed, after a certain point the company becomes worse not better.

Why not just maintain profit when you get to a certain size within your industry and tweak around the edges to stave off competition ? Chasing more profit leads to less service and less employment after a certain point.

 

[[t..o..m]]

Dont think you can apply that to business, the ideology of needing to add 10 or 20% to the bottom line every year is flawed, after a certain point the company becomes worse not better.

Why not just maintain profit when you get to a certain size within your industry and tweak around the edges to stave off competition ? Chasing more profit leads to less service and less employment after a certain point.

lol because the human race just isn't designed to be happy where we are at any given moment. People are never 100% happy with their current position, always striving for more money, better jobs, more friends, bigger houses, more material objects etc etc.
It isn't in our nature to sit and be content with what we have.

This is why what you have proposed will never happen.

 

[MrBurns]

lol because the human race just isn't designed to be happy where we are at any given moment. People are never 100% happy with their current position, always striving for more money, better jobs, more friends, bigger houses, more material objects etc etc.
It isn't in our nature to sit and be content with what we have.

This is why what you have proposed will never happen.

I agree but I think it may be possible to regulate toward restricting pursuit of further growth when a company reaches a certain status within it's own industry, perhaps it should be broken up or some other mechanism to stop it deteriorating into what say Telstra is today.

People can then still go on pursuing wealth and happiness but the larger companies in society wouldn't be pulling themselves and everyone around them down for the sheer pursuit of more profit.

Yes very theoretical I know but you have to think outside the square.

 

[basilio]

Yeah TOM we have been programmed to want more and more, bigger and bigger ect. Comes from basic greed stoked up with 21st century marketing.

And it will stop. Infinite wants and infinite growth meet finite earth. Reality trumps avarice.

"When the last tree is cut down, when the last creek runs dry we will discover we can't eat money"

 

[[t..o..m]]

Yeah TOM we have been programmed to want more and more, bigger and bigger ect. Comes from basic greed stoked up with 21st century marketing.

And it will stop. Infinite wants and infinite growth meet finite earth. Reality trumps avarice.

"When the last tree is cut down, when the last creek runs dry we will discover we can't eat money"

Too true, all of this will ultimately, as you stated, lead to the 'death' of man. But hey we are all guilty of it, we are probably the worst of all with everyone here being obsessed with stocks ha ha we are all on our way "out", act accordingly

 

[basilio]

I was probably too blunt and too realistic in my last post.

The share market can be a constructive way to create capital for new ventures. The problem lies in the rules of the game. What do we want to create.? What will we destroy in the process of creating this new thing? And will we be happier little vegemites after we have created it....?

Imagine a couple of different worlds. In one world some of the biggest business's are immense gambling palaces which create huge palaces with lots of tinkling machines that systemically creates addiction and strips people of their money. This world also produces a infinite array of electronic gadgets that are made obsolete within an eyeblink and keep us amused for just a little longer. And to produce and maintain these toys we produce vasts amounts of energy through a process that we know is cooking our planet.

In this world we call all of this progress.

In another world we don't encourage, perhaps not even allow massive gambling. We keep our toys simple and don't replace them quite so quickly. We live in 3 bedroom houses that we don't renovate every 5 years. We eat a couple of meals a day some of which we actually grow, live with our kids and families (as distinct from watch the idiot box) and live simply. (and we don't spend too much time banging on in internet forums..!)

Isn't it strange how this world seems so strange ? Does this say something about how we have been brainwashed?

 

[mayk]

There was a good documentary by the name of "Century of self", depicting the artificial creed implanted in the brains through this new tool: electronic media.

Growth will become very slow when all the world has been developed. The problem right now is that most of the population of this world is still undeveloped, so growth at such high rates is still possible.

Imagine a world where the deaths are equal to newborns, where 99% of the population is middle class. Where major infrastructure has been developed (roads, buildings etc). In that scenario, the growth will be extremely slow. That equilibrium is hard and difficult to achieve and clever people (read- money masters) know this and will not like/want this to be achieved. Hence you will see the apparent discrepancy in the policies, these aimless wars and propaganda churning media surround this finite earth.

 

[Tysonboss1]

Banks, you cant speak to anyone anymore just a call routing system infuriating auto service.

I don't know what you mean, I just email my account manager and he calls me usally within about 30mins to give me the info I need.

I think the service at the bank has never been better.

 

[Tysonboss1]

The opposite of growth is death

So we overstock the pasture , lose the top soil and need to let the land lie fallow ( deleveraging )

shedding jobs is a good
because better ones are created

I aggree with all the points above,

Especially the comment about jobs, as time goes on jobs are lost in certain areas, but that just frees up the human capital for other areas,... eg, Computers and printers made typists almost obselete (companies used to have rooms full of typists reproducing letters), but computers and printers have spawned countless other jobs in IT,

 

[MrBurns]

I don't know what you mean, I just email my account manager and he calls me usally within about 30mins to give me the info I need.

I think the service at the bank has never been better.

I have access to the manager as well but not everyone does, if you call the main number it's hard to get anywhere same as Telstra.

Try ordering a new Visa card like I did, hung up after 30 minutes.

 

[Tysonboss1]

Why not just maintain profit when you get to a certain size within your industry and tweak around the edges to stave off competition ? Chasing more profit leads to less service and less employment after a certain point.

Well to maintain your market share in an economy you have to grow, If your profits are not growing then they are going back wards.

Companies grow and companies shrink it's all a matter of time. The families and companies that topped the rich lists 100years ago probally don't hold the same positions now.

 

[MrBurns]

Well to maintain your market share in an economy you have to grow, If your profits are not growing then they are going back wards.

Companies grow and companies shrink it's all a matter of time. The families and companies that topped the rich lists 100years ago probally don't hold the same positions now.

I know it sounds simplistic but you have to grow only because thats the way it's all geared, there has to be a reason for growth beyond a certain point otherwise it's destructive and it's people who suffer, workers and users.

Banks
Telstra etc