GRAFT

[tech/a]

Serious palm greasing particularly for larger contracts has been going on for years and will go on for millenia.

Wheat board scandal-------tip of the iceberg.
Remember the Olympics,Winter olympics.
World cup. The list is endless.
What we dont know and never hear of!!! Its the way it is and the way it will be.No matter what the puritans do,think or wish for.

 

[Happy]

In many countries it is normal and expected.

 

[dutchie]

Our market version - inside trading, share price manipulation, issue of options etc etc.

 

[Strw23]

I dont think the general public have much of an idea of the way the world works. Lots of large overseas companies actualy have a bribe expense account built into their financials. I dont really see a big diference between giving someone a bribe or taking them out on the town or comping hotels, meals, parties etc. Its just depends on what is socially acceptable in diferent parts of the world. I dont know the figures but from what I understand the bribe was a small sum compared to the value of wheat exported from Australia. Just think of how it helped the economy, and what state the farmers might be in if Iraq hadnt bought the wheat. I used to be a supervisor at one place I worked and it was nothing for suppliers to give us jackets and take us to football games in order to keep us buying from them.

Scott

 

[Julia]

I dont think the general public have much of an idea of the way the world works. Lots of large overseas companies actualy have a bribe expense account built into their financials. I dont really see a big diference between giving someone a bribe or taking them out on the town or comping hotels, meals, parties etc. Its just depends on what is socially acceptable in diferent parts of the world. I dont know the figures but from what I understand the bribe was a small sum compared to the value of wheat exported from Australia. Just think of how it helped the economy, and what state the farmers might be in if Iraq hadnt bought the wheat. I used to be a supervisor at one place I worked and it was nothing for suppliers to give us jackets and take us to football games in order to keep us buying from them.

Scott

Agree absolutely, Scott.
I have worked in the pharmaceutical industry. Much is made of the vast amounts spent on clinical research. That is true. However, it is totally dwarfed by the amount spent on advertising/promotion, entertainment etc to the medical profession.

Why should selling wheat to Iraq be any different?

Julia

 

[wayneL]

So what's happening here? We are saying we condone corruption... whether covert or overt?

 

[Broadside]

Graft may be the way of the world but when it is detected and breaches Australian law, as in the case of the AWB, those involved should be prosecuted. The government by turning a blind eye or at least not investigating the initial allegations has done Australia a great dis-service and our international reputation has been harmed. That not only affects our wheat markets but all our markets. A good reputation is hard earned but can be quickly lost.

 

[tech/a]

Certainly you cant turn a blind eye once its headline news.

But political point scoring has a price as you mention well beyond throwing mud in the face of the opposition.More damage to the Aust Economy could have been delivered by public exposure than being handled as an internal investigation.---yeh I know how far would that go--about as far as this public one is going with less impact on our international reputation.

Its the political agendas that annoy me and the stupidity of a public witch hunt to score points without thought to repercussions in the international community,all for the sake of votes!

There is not a lot of stone throwing going on I notice as the walls in the Political Glass houses are very thin indeed.

Just handle it with more diplomacy.

 

[Julia]

So what's happening here? We are saying we condone corruption... whether covert or overt?

No, Wayne. Not condoning it at all. Simply sadly acknowledging how things are.

Julia

 

[Knobby22]

On you Broadside, Tech/a I disagree with you.

Bribery and corruption happen and encouraging it in third world countries adds to the problem. I should know, I have worked in Indonesia.

But this is even worse. It is going against the countries wishes and treaties and besmirches our nation's name and that of the UN. If this is ongoing then the UN may as well close up shop now and we can get ready for WW3.

There are too many apologists for the government on this thread, swallowing whole the spin of paid bulldust artists.

We should be taking this very seriously and show we are not the US or the French and can be trusted to do business with. We should show that we regret this by our actions. NOT keeping it as quite as possible and pretending the international community does not notice, like Tech/a suggests. It may hurt a little but you can't take the moral highground and the lowground at the same time.

The directors of the AWB should be prosecuted, and the tax break that was given to shareholders for claiming the bribe as an expense should be given to Iraq as a donation. They should also be made to apoligise to the Defence establishment for providing new weapons to the soldiers they had to fight.
Finally the Trade minister. Mark Vaille should be sacked for being incompetant and for arranging that pathetic trade policy with the US. This government has been in too long. Fresh ministers are required.

 

[bullmarket]

:iagree: with knobby22 and broadside

sure - grafting, payolla, call it what you like goes on and will go on but you can't compare the scale and the consequences of the bribes on innocent Iraqi people to some supplier here slipping a case of beer or whatever to his customer at Christmas or re-tender times.

Imo, if the AWB or the gov't or anyone else knew that innocent people were being murdered using means funded by the bribes that were paid by the AWB then imo they are accessories to murder in at least the ethical sense - and an Australian company and/or gov't turning a blind eye to that to simply protect some jobs here is appalling imo.

It's a sad day when anyone, especially in a civilised country like ours would support and help fund the atrocities that are going on in Iraq or similar countries

There is no way anybody is going to convince me that the AWB didn't know the purposes for which their bribes were being used.

cheers

bullmarket

 

[Milk Man]

I thought the thread title stood for "Gant rembember a f@&?*&# thing" as in what Ol' Johnny reckons. Bribes are fine by me, so long as no-one finds out .

 

[Happy]

I suspect that if trucking fee wasn't paid contract could be lost and next in line would be offered the contract with salt fee at the time or later.

 

[Smurf1976]

Suffice to say that I've seen enough that I'll never believe the spin about "competition" or "economic reform" ever again - it's nothing more than a smokescreen for dodgy deals from what I've seen. I just don't follow how paying more (as in triple the price) for exactly the same thing makes it cheaper. Unless, that is, there's something funny going on.

 

[Broadside]

Kickbacks blow our leverage in trade talks
Cameron Stewart and Geoff Elliott
April 15, 2006
AUSTRALIA'S reputation as an honest broker in trade talks has been badly damaged by the AWB bribery scandal, with powerful US senators threatening to pursue Canberra through the World Trade Organisation.

Local and international trade experts yesterday issued damning assessments of the potential fallout from the controversy, warning that Australia had surrendered the moral high ground in free trade talks by allowing almost $300million to be paid to Saddam Hussein's regime.

They said the scandal would be used as a weapon against Australia by countries wedded to protectionism, which would claim the bribes were effectively an export subsidy to Australia's wheat industry funded by the UN oil-for-food program.

American senators have asked US Trade Representative Rob Portman to mount a WTO case against Australia, saying there is a prima facie case that Australia broke US trade law by failing to stop the kickbacks.

"We think the bribes paid through the oil-for-food program were in effect export subsidies and therefore grounds for a WTO case," said a spokesman for Iowa senator Tom Harkin, who is leading the charge with other wheat-state senators Max Baucus, Kent Conrad, Byron Dorgan and Ken Salazar.

Alan Oxley, Australia's former ambassador to the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade - the WTO's predecessor - told The Weekend Australian there was "no question (but) that the whole episode had damaged Australia's credibility for negotiating trade liberalisation".

"It will make it difficult for Australia to credibly argue to others that you shouldn't have government interference to manage trade," he said.

Australia has been at the forefront of the movement to end the market "corruption" of farm export subsidies for two decades.

In 1986, the Hawke government was instrumental in founding the Cairns Group, a coalition of 18 "fair trading" agricultural exporting countries that has challenged the world's major blocs, principally the US and the European Union, to meet WTO free-trade objectives.

There is mounting pressure in the US Congress for the Bush administration to use the wheat scandal to force Australia to end its support for the AWB's wheat monopoly during the Doha round of trade talks, due to be concluded this year.

The importance of the negotiations was one of the reasons Trade Minister Mark Vaile gave the Cole inquiry for his failing to read the cables on the scandal.

John Baize, an international trade consultant who has worked in the White House and in Congress as a farm trade specialist, said: "For the Howard Government to continue to support the single desk (AWB monopoly) while pushing hard for the US toeliminate subsidies is a less credible position. It's disappointed me, it's disappointed a lot of people. Corruption in that part of the world (Iraq) is a way of life. I guess what surprised me is that Australians were doing it."

Australia's weakened negotiating position comes at a time when the momentum for global free trade has stalled, with the Doha talks mired in disputes.

In Geneva, trade expert Carin Smaller, from the US think tank the Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy, said the AWB scandal had exposed Australia as being as self-interested on trade as any other country.

"This exposes the hypocrisy of Australia's policy when it comes to agriculture trade with developing countries," Ms Smaller said. "Its position is not about supporting fairness, it's very much about self-interest and expanding Australia's own markets."

Former Howard government trade minister Tim Fischer also warned that the scandal would bruise Australia's reputation in the short term, but said it would cause no longer-term damage.

"In the short-term there will be eyebrows raised by diplomats and others steeped in the art ofdealing with hypocrisy and double standards," Mr Fischer told The Weekend Australian.

Mr Oxley, one of Australia's most experienced and respected trade negotiators, said the scandal would reduce Canberra's negotiating options in free trade talks later this year.

"One option for Australia in the Doha round would have been to trade off the single desk in return for greater access in foreign markets for Australian wheat exporters, but its credibility to press that case is now very weak."

Mr Oxley said the scandal showed the dangers of allowing diplomatic and political considerations to have an impact on trade deals.

Senator Harkin's spokesman said the Cole inquiry showed the Howard Government was "willing and ready to go into bat for the AWB and that that close relationship between AWB and the Australian Government made it more difficult for US wheat farmers to compete".

"Our farmers should not have to compete with a government," he said.

But Senator Harkin's push, along with criticism from trade experts following the issue, contrasts with silence from the Bush administration. It is minimising any public criticism of Australia's involvement in the Iraq oil-for-food scandal for fear of upsetting a loyal ally that has troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The AWB scandal leapt on to the international stage this week as media outlets around the globe began reporting the issue after the testimony of Trade Minister Mark Vaile, Foreign Minister Alexander Downer and John Howard.

Alan Tracy, president of marketing group the US Wheat Associates, said it was "amazing that the Australian Government, despite apparently having been repeatedly lied to and misled, continues to defend the AWB to this day. They seem to treat the AWB like a pet puppy that can do no wrong."

Agriculture counsellors at embassies in Washington said they were following the issue closely.

Labor and Coalition MPs warned that Mr Vaile would face a tough time defending Australian wheat farming interests as world trade talks wound up in coming months.

Their warning came as the Prime Minister launched his strongest attack against the former Australian Wheat Board, accusing it of "systematically" misleading his Government.

Appearing to pre-empt the findings of commissioner Terence Cole, Mr Howard said AWB had misled a range of bodies, including the UN and the Government, and even former High Court chief justice Anthony Mason.

Labor foreign affairs spokesman Kevin Rudd said Australian farmers were likely to suffer as a result of pressure by the US and Europe to prise open regulatory arrangements.

»

 

[RichKid]

In many countries it is normal and expected.

Alas, that includes us (local councils and developers, big business and political donations, local elections and factions, corrupt cops (in all states)/institutions). Except we probably see it on a much smaller scale than some 'lawless' countries.

Tech's correct of course, greasing the palm has been part of trade for centuries, in certain circumstances it's illegal, in others it's just business. The boundary on that continuum can elude us from time to time. We need to be vigilant to make sure it doesn't get out of hand- knowing and voicing our discontent when we hear of it is a great start, the last thing you need is apathy.

 

[anon]

Going some twenty years back I was in Japan on a business trip. I was having lunch in the dining room of the

hotel I was staying at when this American guy asked me if he could sit down at my table. The place was full so

I readily said - please join me. It turned out that this guy was the regional chief in the Asian area of a major

U.S. testing/measuring equipment manufacturer. Amongst other things our discussion turned to graft and

corruption in the region, and he told me that it was the usual practice. But, he said, don't think that corruption

exists only in Asia. Then he told me how he had to go to Mexico to sort out why a shipment of their equipment

was held up at the customs. It turned out that some special charges weren't being met. This was graft money,

which my friend baulked at. The official he was dealing with then took him to a holding area which was full of

IBM equipment to which he pointed and said - that's been there for over six months, and will stay there till they

pay.

I know that IBM has very stict business ethics and I don't think that they would ever pay graft. And the strict

business ethics haven't done IBM any harm.


One of the students in my wife's craft courses in Sydney was a Swiss lady whose husband represented a

major Swiss printing press manufacturers/distributors. Prior to his Australian assignment this guy was the

sales manager for the Middle East region. We got to know them quite well and learned from him how things

are done in that other part of the world. At one stage their company was bidding for a major contract in Egypt,

and things were going well. Finally they were called in and were told that their submission was acceptable, but

they would have to alter the price from twenty million dollars to twenty two million dollars. Those extra two

million were to be lodged into a special account.


What has happened with AWB is highly regrettable from our national point of view. I think that the Cole

Enquiry should be enabled and encouraged to complete its job and should result in proper legal processes against

the culprits, whoever they are. Unfortunately the Opposition is only a comedy team, and pretty dull one at that,

(really not even a team), otherwise there would be a strong case for mounting action for a change.


anon

 

[macca]

According to a report in todays paper, the same reports were given to both the government and the opposition by the AWB.

It wasn't until the USA started asking questions that anyone thought that maybe something wasn't quite right.