Economic implications of a SARS/Coronavirus outbreak

hja said:

I have something more than an idea just like you. And I have an opinion that just doesn't coincide with the one your spouting here. But like the next person, I'm perfectly capable of keeping abreast with what the score is now, having access to the same sources as you whether its footage, eyewitness accounts, etc. So don't give me the holier than thou speech because you think your circumstance is "privileged".

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I'm not saying I'm privileged, I'm saying I've spent years routinely shopping at wet markets, I've been to wet markets in many countries, I've been to the in capital cities and remote villages, I've lived long term in communities where they're more or less the only way to trade food, and you have never even seen one and have merely seen propaganda relating to them. If you think you're perfectly capable of keeping abreast of the situation with wet markets based solely on utterly misleading propaganda, you are delusional.

Let's not play with terminology. We're talking about markets whether they're wet or dry (this doesn't matter) that are home to exotic, jungle, wildlife beasts in proximity to other animals and people.

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Do you even know what wet market means? If your problem is exclusively with bushmeat, then say you oppose bushmeat. Do you know what exotic means? Most of the bushmeat I've seen at wetmarkets is not exotic, very little of it is. It would be exotic to you, but at the wetmarket it is not exotic. Again, the type of bat COVID-19 is derived from doesn't come from anywhere near Wuhan and no bats were sold at the wetmarket in question.

Yeah well everyone has an opinion just as each has an exhaust orifice.

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You seem to be suffering from that terrible notion which was given to western schoolchildren for so long. The completely incorrect notion that everyone deserves an opinion and all opinions are equally valid. I am a biologist, I am not a mechanical engineer. My opinion on biology counts for a lot, and a mechanical engineer's counts for very little. My opinion on mechanics counts for very little, and generally I either wouldn't hold one or I would acknowledge that is it not really worth much. You are like a 5 year old child insisting you know how spaceships work. Because you saw an episode of Star Trek.

You're no different and are holding a flame precariously close it. So too bad if you're disgruntled or worked up about "wet", but I'm not naive to have some concept of what wet is dealing with. I'm aware it's the watering down of surfaces epsecially where meat has been cut/prepared and there's the strong implication of rampant cross-contamination.

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Wow. If I was trying to say something stupid without going far enough to make it look like I was joking or mentally disabled, I wouldn't have said something that stupid. You are back to thinking this is about watering down surfaces? Earlier you said the terminology or 'wet' was not the issue and that it was a bushmeat issue. In reality, animals in a forest are all other there fighting, eating each other, dying, picking through the scraps, etc etc. A wet market with local bushmeat doesn't do anything which isn't already happening in the surrounding area. Washing a market down with water is hardly a crazy thing, that happens all over the world. I don't think you even know exactly how a wet market is designed, and if I took you to markets across Asia and Australia I'm not sure if you'd even know how to classify them!

Country Lad said:

Engineered in the lab is likely a nonsense. Escaped from the lab is very likely

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Why nonsense? Feasible? Yes
Why? Because i can...
May not even be a bio weapon, just playing with big boy toys/tool
There are hiv sequence which are worrying in the genome, it has also been revealed the virus attacks TCells as hiv, i believe we have no hope of a vaccine for that reason neither hiv or coronavirus have working vaccines.
And for that reason am also very scared of the ongoing potential effect of that virus.we..well China uncovered/created a monster..
But even if not created, let's be reasonable and stop this crap about it coming from a bat via Wuhan market, and maybe via a snake or a pangolin
The bigger the fake news, the easier it is swallowed line and hooks by some

hja said:

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/apr/16/what-is-a-wet-market-coronavirus
...
The now-infamous Wuhan South China seafood market, suspected to be a primary source for spreading Covid-19 in late 2019, had a wild animal section where live and slaughtered species were for sale, including snakes, beavers, badgers, civet cats, foxes, peacocks and porcupines among other animals.

The Wuhan market was closed in January and the Chinese authorities placed a temporary ban on all trade in wildlife. But according to recent news reports, some wildlife markets in southern China have reopened amid the pandemic, selling dogs, cats, bats, lizards and scorpions among other species.

Many Chinese continue to believe in the health benefits of consuming meat from wild animals. Two leading Hong Kong microbiologists, Professor Yuen Kwok-yung and Dr David Lung, last month condemned the continuing practice of consuming wild game, warning that “Sars 3.0” could materialise if people do not refrain from eating wild animals.

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You realise that markets all over Asia, thousands upon thousands upon thousands of them, sell things like dog, bat, lizard, scorpion, etc, right? I've bought dogs, bats and lizards at markets across Asia (for memory I don't think I've bought scorpions at a wet market, although I've eaten a few I caught myself and have played with them at the markets). In countries neighbouring China and in other countries spread far and wide, these markets continue to operate as normal. My friends still routinely shop at them and if not for the travel bans I would be too. There are conflicting reports about the exact nature of the specific wet market in question (there were many false reports early on, including plenty of deliberate misinformation, with mainstream media in Australia even claiming such nonsense as live koalas being for sale there! I can tell you this is so far beyond untrue it's just insane), but horseshoe bats have never been sold there.

People are not going to stop eating wild animals any time soon. Anyone who has been to remote, poor areas of the world understands that, and anyone who doesn't understand it is completely naive about what exists in this world. Even in Australia humans routinely eat bats, legally, and this isn't going to change.

Sdajii said:

Even in Australia humans routinely eat bats, legally, and this isn't going to change.

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And in melanesia, 100% sure in New Caledonia, but I think also in Vanuatu, Salomon islands etc:
Fruit bats are eaten relatively commonly: in NC it is called "roussette" I have not tasted it be given the opportunities I would have

satanoperca said:

I have highlighted just one word so you can understand, "suspected".

Proof of evidence prevails.

Do you have any proof, that this virus emanated from the wet markets?

Address facts not hearsay, it helps with the discussion.

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We may never know. But the common denominator between SARS and this virus is China and these settings which are conducive to the problem. If even the Chinese authorities acknowledge it as they are back and forthing on the markets situation, there has to be something in it, whether its origin or its perpetuation.

Sdajii said:

You realise that markets all over Asia, thousands upon thousands upon thousands of them, sell things like dog, bat, lizard, scorpion, etc, right? I've bought dogs, bats and lizards at markets across Asia (for memory I don't think I've bought scorpions at a wet market, although I've eaten a few I caught myself and have played with them at the markets). In countries neighbouring China and in other countries spread far and wide, these markets continue to operate as normal. My friends still routinely shop at them and if not for the travel bans I would be too. There are conflicting reports about the exact nature of the specific wet market in question (there were many false reports early on, including plenty of deliberate misinformation, with mainstream media in Australia even claiming such nonsense as live koalas being for sale there! I can tell you this is so far beyond untrue it's just insane), but horseshoe bats have never been sold there.

People are not going to stop eating wild animals any time soon. Anyone who has been to remote, poor areas of the world understands that, and anyone who doesn't understand it is completely naive about what exists in this world. Even in Australia humans routinely eat bats, legally, and this isn't going to change.

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I'm not going to respond to your previous post because you keep missing the point and it's a bit repetitive. Already been through the terminology and why it doesn't matter. Wet, dry, it doesn't matter. The crux is the environment, practices of housing and chaotic mixing of pets, exotic animals, jungle meat, usually caged defecating on each other, you name it... and the cross-contamination which wouldn't be limited to but include watering down of prep surfaces in this jumbled zoo of a setting. Yeah you might consider this acceptable but that's your opinion.

This kind of setting might not be an issue for you but at least it has the Chinese authorities paying more attention to it again. So it's not just the "wet" part per se.

Australian humans might be eating cockroaches or koalas legally or illegally but that's not the point. Again, It's the environment we're discussing. I don't see why you find that so hard to understand.

hja said:

We may never know. But the common denominator between SARS and this virus is China and these settings which are conducive to the problem. If even the Chinese authorities acknowledge it as they are back and forthing on the markets situation, there has to be something in it.

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You make no sense. You argue for one thing, but cannot construct a logic agreement for.

Wish you all the best with trying to understand complex issues, the thing is sdjaii tried to give you real world insight into the situation, but if you have never experienced, you will fail to understand.

Getting back to the economic implications, the market is still climbing toward the 6000 mark, where to from there will be interesting.
Is it a pump and dump, or does the market really believe there has been an over reaction?

sptrawler said:

Getting back to the economic implications, the market is still climbing toward the 6000 mark, where to from there will be interesting.
Is it a pump and dump, or does the market really believe there has been an over reaction?

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FOMO

One thing I have noticed, my BIL who was complaining of no work last year, now can't scratch himself he is so busy, he is a glazier self employed.
The other thing a lot of my friends are grandparents, they are getting fed up with having to babysit because their kids are all still working.
I'm sure travel, hospitality and discretionary retail is being hammered, I'm not so sure on the rest of the economy.
It certainly is hard to fathom.

Every country would be stuffing around with these sorts of viruses in a lab, they would be stupid not to be doing this sort of research. The Wuhan lab was one such lab but it had a poor record in the past when it came to people getting infected that are working in the lab. If China was playing around with this virus in a lab I dont have an issue with it as everyone else is probably doing the same, BUT if that is the case (which seems highly likely) they just need to come out and admit it.

If any of this had happened in another country you can bet they would have been way more up front about what happened and where it came from. China Government are hiding stuff, its just a fact and they cant be trusted at all.

Its a sad day when "saving face" for the CPC is more important then saving thousands or potentially millions of lives - yet this has always been the case when it comes to the CPC. As i have said previously, dont mix up the CPC and the Chinese people - the people are wonderful people who are oppressed and have no choice, the CPC is the issue here.

There are two threads, one on general discussion and one on economic ramifications, can we try and keep them seperate to stop clutter.
It includes me, Ive probably digressed also.

https://english.alarabiya.net/en/fe...rs-suggests-higher-COVID-19-death-toll-Report

A major drop of 21 million cellphone users in China over the past few months may indicate a higher death toll due to the coronavirus than what the Chinese government has officially announced, a report by The Epoch Times newspaper, which opposes the Communist Party of China, suggests.

China’s Ministry of Industry and Information Technology (MIIT) issued on March 19 the latest statistics of the number of phone users in each province in February 2020.

Compared with the previous announcement, which was released on December 18, 2019, for November 2019 data, cellphone users dropped dramatically.

The number of cellphone users decreased from 1.601 billion to 1.58 billion, a drop of 21 million.

“The Chinese regime requires all Chinese to use their cellphones to generate a health code. Only with a green health code are Chinese allowed to move in China now. It’s impossible for a person to cancel his cellphone,” Tang Jingyuan, a US-based China affairs commentator, told The Epoch Times on March 21.
...

Country Lad said:

FOMO

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And the higher the market goes the greater the fear.

qldfrog said:

And this focus on the wet market..which is the official CCP explanation is probably pure BS propaganda, even if it was mot engineered ..my view..it comes from a lab

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I doubt that anyone calling for the markets to be shut is really focused on shutting the markets but rather, the aim is to determine the truth not with absolute certainty but as far as practical.

Actions speak louder than words and whilst not absolute proof, leaving the markets open does diminish the credibility of the Chinese government's theory about them being the source of the virus.

jbocker said:

Reading through recent comments I sense that there is an underlying message from all, that we need to make China accountable for the virus, however it was caused. How do we do we make them accountable??
The cause of the existence of the virus would be clouded (probably deliberately) and at one point blamed on as a 'natural occurrence'. This then would remove the blame from the community/nation. Was That Wet Market in particular set up as a red herring (natural cause) to hide the root cause, who knows? The wet market being reopened seems to undo the belief or excuse that the market is the root cause, due to other facts, that has exposed the 'red herring'

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If an individual or business causes some disaster and points to the direct cause then that is one thing. Depending on circumstances individuals and governments might forgive them if they conclude that it was an unforeseeable situation and so on.

If they do the same thing again however, well at that point all credibility is destroyed. Either they're outright dumb and haven't learned from past mistakes or they're telling lies as to what really happened hence the lack of fear in doing it again.

Smurf1976 said:

I doubt that anyone calling for the markets to be shut is really focused on shutting the markets but rather, the aim is to determine the truth not with absolute certainty but as far as practical.

Actions speak louder than words and whilst not absolute proof, leaving the markets open does diminish the credibility of the Chinese government's theory about them being the source of the virus.

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I agree on your last point.
Medicine nobel price who discovered the HIV thinks it is man made and escaped from lab too
https://asiatimes.com/2020/04/french-prof-sparks-furor-with-lab-leak-theory/
Note the tone of the article and how it is trying to discredit it...Asia times news..

Arrr apologies..wring thread again..not economic implication
Last night us was exuberant after a PR from a drug maker..funny how people/market can decide to find good news when they want to, and from basically no data...
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/anal...-gileads-coronavirus-treatment-133340939.html
More details above..

hja said:

I'm not going to respond to your previous post because you keep missing the point and it's a bit repetitive. Already been through the terminology and why it doesn't matter. Wet, dry, it doesn't matter. The crux is the environment, practices of housing and chaotic mixing of pets, exotic animals, jungle meat, usually caged defecating on each other, you name it... and the cross-contamination which wouldn't be limited to but include watering down of prep surfaces in this jumbled zoo of a setting. Yeah you might consider this acceptable but that's your opinion.

This kind of setting might not be an issue for you but at least it has the Chinese authorities paying more attention to it again. So it's not just the "wet" part per se.

Australian humans might be eating cockroaches or koalas legally or illegally but that's not the point. Again, It's the environment we're discussing. I don't see why you find that so hard to understand.

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How does it feel to write that long a response and starting it with "I'm not going to respond..."?

So anyway, you want to shut down something you imagine is common but in reality scarcely exists. You don't seem to even be able to articulate what you want shut down. It's comedic that you say "usually caged defecating on each other... you name it". In all my travels in Asia, in all the countless wet markets I've been to, I've very rarely (I could count them on one hand) seen animals caged so that they were defecating on to animals in the cages below. I've seen that in pet markets (in countries including ...Australia) but very rarely at wet markets in Asia. In markets where live food animals are for sale, almost always they are caged in ways where they won't be defecating on each other - again you simply demonstrate how divorced you are from reality when you say they are "usually caged defecating on each other" - your exact words. People buying food don't usually like it being **** on in front of them - bad for sales, even if they have no regard for animal welfare.

In reality, you will 100% not shut down wet markets, which you seem to acknowledge now.
In reality, you will 100% not stop the sale of bushmeat/wild game meat ("jungle meat" as you put it) in any country... including Australia. I can literally buy wild game meat at the local supermarket here in Melbourne!
In reality, you will 100% not stop people washing down surfaces with water, including in Australia (are you smoking crack before writing your posts?)

You are wanting to ban something which exists primarily in your imagination and in propaganda, and is at best difficult to define, and certainly impossible to enforce. Vague guidelines are difficult to enforce at the best of times, and if you think they're going to be enforced in Asia you have no concept of reality. Well, that's clear anyway.

Are you even able to articulate what you want? No sale of pets and meat for human consumption in the same location (haha, good luck with that!). No live animals sold where food is sold (haha! Good luck with that!). No washing down surfaces with water (seriously???). Limiting the number of species of animals being sold as food at one market (LOL). Not having animals caged so they will **** on the animals below (common at pet markets sometimes even in western countries including Australia, but rare in food markets, and utterly unenforceable). What do you want?

hja said:

We may never know. But the common denominator between SARS and this virus is China and these settings which are conducive to the problem. If even the Chinese authorities acknowledge it as they are back and forthing on the markets situation, there has to be something in it, whether its origin or its perpetuation.

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And the Spanish flu and swine flu both came from the USA.

Both have killed far more than Covid19, why haven’t you been requesting chicken and pig farms be shut down.

since Spanish flu came from chickens in the USA, and Swine flu came from a pig farm in Louisiana USA.