East Timor

[Sean K]

This country is going to be a basket case for years.

They haven't even got a sealed road that runs completely across the country and yet they're signing contracts for new patrol boats worth millions.

Healthcare? When their PM gets shot, he has to be sent to Darwin for treatment.
Law and order? Their police force is undertrained, underpaid, and corrupt.
Education and industry? What's that?
Infrastructure? Let's first build a presedential palace instead of fixing the pot holes around Dili.

And, how do you support your neighbours who are providing all your security and half your GDP. You go and buy those new patrol boats from China. WTF!

Maybe it will provide some balance into the future.

Alarm grows at China's influence in East Timor
Mark Dodd | April 16, 2008

IMPOVERISHED East Timor has signed a $28 million deal with China to buy two advanced patrol boats in a move that will alarm Australia and Indonesia about increasing Chinese influence in the struggling nation.

The deal was signed on April 12 by Prime Minister Xanana Gusmao, Secretary of State for Defence Julio Pinto and Hao Yantan from the Chinese defence company Poly-Technic.

China has been steadily increasing its presence in East Timor. It is involved in oil and gas exploration and was responsible for compiling a geological survey of the half-island state.

China has also recently built a massive Foreign Ministry office on Dili's waterfront.

 

[robert toms]

In the cold light of day it makes you wonder whether East Timor should have been separated from Indonesia....I have had my doubts for quite a while.
Maybe they should have been given some governmental autonomy with Indonesia being responsible for foreign policy,customs and such like.
At the time the Australian media was hardly a reliable source for balanced commentary....as usual I suppose.

 

[juw177]

I find it hypocritical that Australia supported the division of Indonesia and cashed in on their natural resources. (No I don't buy all the humanitarian intervention rubbish).

Now people are jumping up and down because instead of Woodside, it is a Chinese company there.

According to wikipedia Australia's economic interests in East Timor:

One promising long-term project is the joint development with Australia of petroleum and natural gas resources in the waters southeast of Timor. The Portuguese colonial administration granted concessions to Oceanic Exploration Corporation to develop the deposits, however, this was curtailed by the Indonesian invasion in 1976. The resources were divided between Indonesia and Australia with the Timor Gap Treaty in 1989.[24] The treaty established guidelines for joint exploitation of seabed resources in the area of the "gap" left by then-Portuguese Timor in the maritime boundary agreed between the two countries in 1972.[25] Revenues from the "joint" area were to be divided 50%-50%. Woodside Petroleum and ConocoPhillips began development of some resources in the Timor Gap on behalf of the two governments in 1992.

East Timor inherited no permanent maritime boundaries when it attained independence, repudiating the Timor Gap Treaty as illegal. A provisional agreement (the Timor Sea Treaty, signed when East Timor became independent on 20 May 2002) defined a Joint Petroleum Development Area (JPDA), and awarded 90% of revenues from existing projects in that area to East Timor and 10% to Australia.[26] The first significant new development in the JPDA since Timorese independence is the largest petroleum resource in the Timor Sea, the Greater Sunrise gas field. Its exploitation was the subject of separate agreements in 2003 and 2005. Only 20% of the field lies within the JPDA and the rest in waters not subject to the treaty (though claimed by both countries). The initial, temporary agreement gave 82% of revenues to Australia and only 18% to East Timor.[27]

The Government of East Timor has sought to negotiate a definite boundary with Australia at the halfway line between the countries, in accordance with the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. The Government of Australia preferred to establish the boundary at the end of the wide Australian continental shelf, as agreed with Indonesia in 1972 and 1991. Normally a dispute such as this could be referred to the International Court of Justice or the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea for an impartial decision,[28] but the Australian government had withdrawn itself from these international jurisdictions (solely on matters relating to maritime boundaries) shortly before Timorese independence.[29] Nevertheless, under public and diplomatic pressure, the Australian government offered instead a last-minute concession on Greater Sunrise gas field royalties alone.[30] On July 7, 2005, an agreement was signed under which both countries would set aside the dispute over the maritime boundary, and East Timor would receive 50% of the revenues (estimated at A$26 billion or about US$20 billion over the lifetime of the project[31]) from the Greater Sunrise development. Other developments within waters claimed by East Timor but outside the JPDA (Laminaria-Corallina and Buffalo) continue to be exploited unilaterally by Australia, however.[32]

 

[Sean K]

The Dutch and Portugese got it wrong. Completely. Like many colonial powers around the globe. Who divides an island that small between 2 countries? What the?

IMO, the reason East and West Timor has failed as a colonised country is because of opportunity. Neither the Dutch, nor the Portugese, or the Indonesians, took absolute power. What they should have done was take measures to control the country absolutely. They did not.

What we are left with is a State similar to all others around the world not totally controlled by a 'Western' power, or people. A potential, or failed State. A medieval State. Their 'culture' will take time to catch up, and I give them 100 years, like the rest of the SW Pacific.

For South America, maybe 50 years.

For Africa, maybe double that.

For the Middle East and Western Asia, that continue to desire Sharia, it will be an indefinate time frame, because they have frozen time.......

 

[disarray]

I find it hypocritical that Australia supported the division of Indonesia and cashed in on their natural resources. (No I don't buy all the humanitarian intervention rubbish)

well it was sanctioned by the UN and it was hardly the "division of indonesia", it was indonesia pulling out of a colony it annexed which is inhabited by a different race. by your logic supporting independence for east papua would be supporting the division of indonesia as well.

add to this indonesia was under military control throughout the sukarno and suharto eras so indonesia was run by a corrupt despot. human rights were routinely violated and up to 200,000 east timorese are claimed to have died as a result of the occupation (theres plenty of supporting pictures available on the web if you want to go look). seems remarkably like another story going on right now in tibet.

australia was negotiating with indonesia for access to timorese resources anyway so they just changed to negotiating with timor directly.

Now people are jumping up and down because instead of Woodside, it is a Chinese company there.

well australia did expect some economic benefit for the billions of dollars it spent providing timor with support, security and infrastructure during its independence process. as for the patrol boats, i suppose they are necessary for national security (being an island, with pirates and illegal fishermen etc. floating around everywhere) and i don't really care that they bought them from china, china probably gave a better deal. ultimately what its all about is access to resources so the companies can profit. it's a bullsh1t system but its all thats going at the moment, such is humanity.

but i am going to stand up here and say we here in australia do good work (at significant cost) to assist in promoting and maintaining the stability in our region. cambodia, timor, various pacific islands - we spend our money and risk our soldiers lives to support our neighbours having trouble. we do this firstly because regional stability is bad for everyone, secondly because it is the right thing to do and lastly because we may profit from it. we judge others by their actions as we stand by our own.

 

[Pronto]

The Australian intervention in East Timor was always ill-advised, in my opinion. There were as many East Timorese that collaborated with the Japanese, as had helped our (left behind) troops during the war.

The issue of independence had been kept alive in the Press here because of the deaths of the Balibo Five, who were all journalists, and the action reinforced the regional Deputy Dawg role which the Howard Government had lately assumed.

The task for Indonesia in keeping its republic together is difficult enough as it is, and it is not in our longer-term strategic interests to see it unravel, let alone be perceived as helping this along.

 

[Agentm]

The Dutch and Portugese got it wrong. Completely. Like many colonial powers around the globe. Who divides an island that small between 2 countries? What the?

kennas, australia did support a number of things in the region

they supported the division of west papua into the hands of the indonesians..

indonesia had not real foothold there it was a landgrab.. the culture and the traditional owners there have had an awful history since, and that country sits almost as close as timor, so we really have two of our closest neighbours in the region in a real mess imho..

i support the independence of the timorese, as i support the plight of the west papua traditional owners. I dont think they had any say in the loss of their country to the colonialists, as i believe the timorese had little say in their own affairs in timor.

 

[juw177]

disarray, maybe you can enlighten me on why East Timor owes us their natural resources in return for our questionable intervention. What do these "peacekeepers" do and what is the underlying cause? (I admit I am not an expert just very skeptical)

What are all the good things we brought them? From the current state of the regions, does not look like much.

 

[2020hindsight]

... yet they're signing contracts for new patrol boats worth millions.
..
And, how do you support your neighbours who are providing all your security and half your GDP. You go and buy those new patrol boats from China. WTF

well I'm guessing the reason they're getting them from China is the same reason that Rio Tinto and FMG etc all get their wharves made in China these days , and floated down to the Pilbara ...

WTF TPOOM - "well - two for the price of one maybe"?

 

[2020hindsight]

kennas, australia did support a number of things in the region - they supported the division of west papua into the hands of the indonesians..

indonesia had not real foothold there it was a landgrab.. the culture and the traditional owners there have had an awful history since, and that country sits almost as close as timor, so we really have two of our closest neighbours in the region in a real mess imho..

i support the independence of the timorese, as i support the plight of the west papua traditional owners. I dont think they had any say in the loss of their country to the colonialists, as i believe the timorese had little say in their own affairs in timor.

agentm,
whilst I agree with most of what you say - I don;t find much in common between East Timor (since the 1999 UN intervention) and West Papua.

At least East Timor has relative "freedom" these days yes?

PS I'd love to hear the East Timorese version of how much they were told they would get from royalties from the Timor Sea gasfields, and how much has evenuated.

PS No question we had to go in there after the election in 1999 - nuns being massacred hiding in their churches - machete wielding idiots. Even if it subsequently became the reason Osama Bin Laden quotes as justification for Aussies being bombed in Bali .

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/routledg/surviv/2001/00000043/00000001/art00009

Against the grain: the East Timor intervention
Author: Cotton, J.1

Modern Asia has been shaped by intervention, but the principle of non-interference is an integral part of the 'Asian Way'. Countries of the region have doggedly opposed any suggestion that state sovereignty should be softened by a new doctrine of 'humanitarian intervention'. The participation of some of these countries in the 1999 intervention in East Timor - an action sanctioned by the United Nations for specifically humanitarian purposes - was thus out of character.

This departure was a consequence of specific historical and political factors, most importantly, the fact that the UN had never accepted Indonesia's incorporation of the territory as legitimate. Once the United States adopted a more critical attitude, after Australia pressured Indonesia to test local opinion on East Timor's future, the internationalisation of the issue became inevitable. There are certainly lessons in the East Timor case for coalition operations and other interventions in the region. But the actions of the Australian-led coalition do not indicate a wider regional acceptance of the norm of humanitarian intervention.

 

[disarray]

disarray, maybe you can enlighten me on why East Timor owes us their natural resources in return for our questionable intervention. What do these "peacekeepers" do and what is the underlying cause? (I admit I am not an expert just very skeptical)

i didn't say they owed us anything. i said that the australian government probably assumed that, since they were financing their push for freedom, that they would be looked upon favourably for trade benefits once things settled down. of course they were incredibly nieve to think so but thats politicians and bureaucrats for you.

What are all the good things we brought them? From the current state of the regions, does not look like much.

yeah what did we do? enable them to express their desire for self-determination. waste of time and money wasn't it? ending decades of oppression, rape and murder by indonesian special forces and giving them the chance to express their opinion democratically. where's the good?

 

[Sean K]

This country is going to be a basket case for years.

And continue to until they wipe out corruption, which I don't think they have any interest in doing.

Anyone who peaks up will get the marching orders.

Timor's deputy PM Mario Carrascalao quits after row over corruption with Xanana Gusmao
From: AFP September 08, 2010 4:49PM

EAST Timor's Deputy Prime Minister Mario Carrascalao has resigned over corruption after a public row with Prime Minister Xanana Gusmao.

Mr Carrascalao told reporters he could not tolerate being publicly insulted for blowing the whistle on “rampant” corruption in the finance industry.

Mr Gusmao reportedly called Mr Carrascalao, 73, a “stupid liar” after the deputy accused the Prime Minister of involvement in an alleged $300 million corruption case in the finance ministry.

“After 73 years, for the first time in my life, somebody called me a 'stupid liar'. As a normal citizen, I responded by resigning as Deputy Prime Minister,” Mr Carrascalao told reporters after submitting his resignation to Mr Gusmao.

“The corruption, collusion and nepotism remain rampant and the corruptors are protected in a mutual way. Many have spoken about corruption eradication but only a few have good intentions and remain on the front line.”

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Gusmao was involved.

 

[Whiskers]

And continue to until they wipe out corruption, which I don't think they have any interest in doing.

Anyone who peaks up will get the marching orders.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Gusmao was involved.

I can see it going the way of PNG. Australia will have to put lots of strings on Aid money and have Federal Police inspectors and auditors in their public service for years and years to come.