Easiest Ways to Short the Market

[chops_a_must]

I know this is a total 'noob' question, but I notice some other members wondering the same thing. So, what are some easy ways to short the XAO? Are put options listed under their own code etc.?

I'm not seriously considering trading like this myself at the moment, but would like to monitor it throughout this correction so I have the option (pardon the pun) of dealing with it next time.

 

[professor_frink]

Re: Easiest Ways to Short the Market.

I know this is a total 'noob' question, but I notice some other members wondering the same thing. So, what are some easy ways to short the XAO? Are put options listed under their own code etc.?

I'm not seriously considering trading like this myself at the moment, but would like to monitor it throughout this correction so I have the option (pardon the pun) of dealing with it next time.

there are put options on the XJO.
Alternatively, there is CFD's, index futures(my personal choice), and options on the futures contract.

 

[chops_a_must]

Re: Easiest Ways to Short the Market.

there are put options on the XJO.
Alternatively, there is CFD's, index futures(my personal choice), and options on the futures contract.

Is there a code for the puts on the XJO?

Do you need a live data stream tied in with a certain trading platform for the index futures and the futures contract?

Sorry for all the questions, just curious and want to learn as much as I can during the next few weeks.

Cheers.

 

[professor_frink]

Re: Easiest Ways to Short the Market.

Is there a code for the puts on the XJO?

Do you need a live data stream tied in with a certain trading platform for the index futures and the futures contract?

Sorry for all the questions, just curious and want to learn as much as I can during the next few weeks.

Cheers.

The code is XJO plus an additional 2 letters to identify which series it is. Every different stike/expiry will have it's own 2 letter code attached after XJO- you should be able to bring up the entire series for the index on the ASX site if you don't have access to quotes from your broker.


http://www.asx.com.au/investor/options/trading_information/index.htm

there's a link to the entire options code list on that page.

For futures, I get free datafeed from my broker, otherwise you'll need to get data from somewhere else(where else you can get it from I'm not quite sure-haven't looked around as there's no competing with a free feed!), and you'll need a broker that deals in futures. In order to simply have a look at a chart, you can have a look at delayed data for the futures contract here-

http://www.futuresource.com/charts/charts.jsp?s=API1!&o=&a=V:15&z=800x550&d=medium&b=bar&st=

If you're after some more info on futures, the sfe website would be a good start-

http://www.sfe.com.au/

 

[>Apocalypto<]

Re: Easiest Ways to Short the Market.

Is there a code for the puts on the XJO?

Do you need a live data stream tied in with a certain trading platform for the index futures and the futures contract?

Sorry for all the questions, just curious and want to learn as much as I can during the next few weeks.

Cheers.

Hi Chops,

You can trade options over the XJO I trade them with Sanford securities.

The option code is XJO then look at the put options on the board.

One peace of advice the options bids and asks dont really start till 10:30 am and that can make things a pain when u want out quick.

CFD's

You can trade cfd's over the XJO.

IG Markets

Offer a 25 per point contract that is based on the xjo with the futures incorporated into it. You can go long and short. It is the xjo during the day and spi at night. Market hours: opens at 9:50am close at 4:30pm reopens 5:00pm till 7:00am. Can help with placing stop under trends as it does move up and down with a influence from the DOW but be warned if you have real tight stops you could wake up to being stopped out and the market keep going in your favor! Great part is no brokerage, it's included

They also offer a mini that's $5 per point.

Pacific Continental

Offer a CFD over the actual XJO,

Normal asx market hours. Contracts are 5% of the current price eg 5800 x 5% = 290 per contract it moves by 1 dollar per point and brokerage is .1% of total value eg 2 x 5800 = 11600 x .1% = brokerage $11.6

As of right now Pacific continental wont let you go short, but the guy i spoke to said you will be able too very shortly. (5 days soon)

So how many contracts you have = your risk per point.

Now you have to pay interest over long CFD positions but interest is paid to you over short positions.

You dont need a live data feed to trade anything i metioned above it all depends on your time frame.

I use snap live shot with Bourse and Sanford. Ig + Pacific offer live feeds.

You can also trade short over the SPI but talk to Frink about that!

Hope that helps.

 

[dubiousinfo]

As well as put options, there are also put warrants for the XJO. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

The thing that they both have in comon is the "Greeks" You will need to understand the greeks to be any real chance of success.

Wayne and Magdoran have some really excellent stuff on this in their posts. Just have a large box of panadol handy.

 

[wayneL]

As well as put options, there are also put warrants for the XJO. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

The thing that they both have in comon is the "Greeks" You will need to understand the greeks to be any real chance of success.

Wayne and Magdoran have some really excellent stuff on this in their posts. Just have a large box of panadol handy.

I caused a bull market in Panadol in my town when I was learning.

Go long Panadol lol

 

[surfingman]

Thanks for the info greatly appreciated, i am also a newbie but trying to learn, just downloaded from asx site and interested in AOE options.

-Please correct if wrong but from left to right the AOEBQ is stockcode which i would contact broker for a quote on the option.

-Then its expiry date

-Not sure what the 0.8 is?

-Not sure what A is maybe a class?

-Then its packet size 1000 shares



AOE Call Options
AOEBQ 29-Mar-07 0.8 A 1000
AOEBT 29-Mar-07 0.9 A 1000
AOEBU 29-Mar-07 1 A 1000
AOEBX 29-Mar-07 1.1 A 1000
AOEBY 29-Mar-07 1.2 A 1000
AOEB2 28-Jun-07 0.8 A 1000
AOEB3 28-Jun-07 0.9 A 1000
AOEB6 28-Jun-07 1 A 1000
AOEB7 28-Jun-07 1.1 A 1000
AOECF 28-Jun-07 1.2 A 1000
AOECH 27-Sep-07 0.8 A 1000
AOECI 27-Sep-07 0.9 A 1000
AOECL 27-Sep-07 1 A 1000
AOECM 27-Sep-07 1.1 A 1000
AOECP 27-Sep-07 1.2 A 1000

AOE Put Options
AOEBR 29-Mar-07 0.8 A 1000
AOEBS 29-Mar-07 0.9 A 1000
AOEBV 29-Mar-07 1 A 1000
AOEBW 29-Mar-07 1.1 A 1000
AOEBZ 29-Mar-07 1.2 A 1000
AOEB1 28-Jun-07 0.8 A 1000
AOEB4 28-Jun-07 0.9 A 1000
AOEB5 28-Jun-07 1 A 1000
AOEB8 28-Jun-07 1.1 A 1000
AOEB9 28-Jun-07 1.2 A 1000
AOECG 27-Sep-07 0.8 A 1000
AOECJ 27-Sep-07 0.9 A 1000
AOECK 27-Sep-07 1 A 1000
AOECN 27-Sep-07 1.1 A 1000
AOECO 27-Sep-07 1.2 A 1000

There are 2 categories calls and puts which are buys and sells. Thanks in advance, help is greatly appreciated.

 

[dubiousinfo]

Surfingman

For the basics on options the ASX has good material, you will need to register but it is free.
http://www.asx.com.au/investor/education/classes/online.htm#options
After you have got the basics, do a search on ASF.
You will need to learn the basics to be able to follow a lot of the posts on ASF.
Hope this helps.

 

[Bobby]

I caused a bull market in Panadol in my town when I was learning.

Go long Panadol lol

 

[chops_a_must]

I caused a bull market in Panadol in my town when I was learning.

Go long Panadol lol

Lol!

Thanks for all the info on this thread guys! A lot of reading material for the next few days.

Cheers.

 

[dubiousinfo]

I have found that it works out much cheaper if you buy the panadol by the kilo. You will need around 1 kilo for the option basics and another 2 or 3 kilo's for the greeks.

After that you can get into the advanced stuff

 

[chops_a_must]

I have found that it works out much cheaper if you buy the panadol by the kilo. You will need around 1 kilo for the option basics and another 2 or 3 kilo's for the greeks.

After that you can get into the advanced stuff

Oh mate. Have you ever tried reading Husserl?

This stuff is a piece of cake compared to that...

 

[surfingman]

Surfingman

For the basics on options the ASX has good material, you will need to register but it is free.
http://www.asx.com.au/investor/education/classes/online.htm#options
After you have got the basics, do a search on ASF.
You will need to learn the basics to be able to follow a lot of the posts on ASF.
Hope this helps.

Thanks i will check it out now, plently of panadol on hand here im on crouches for a few weeks in a sprained ankle....

 

[retroaugogo]

Easiest way to short the market.

Probably stay out til it rises again.

Many people can't trade on the short side.

 

[nizar]

Just a question:
How do you short stocks (without leverage), which brokers offer this and on which stocks?
And for the TradeSim people im guessing you can design systems that go short on this program just as easy as those that go long, but universe will become more of a consideration as you probably cant short every stock on the asx...

As you can probably see, im a beginner when it comes to shorting...

 

[MichaelD]

How do you short stocks (without leverage), which brokers offer this and on which stocks?

Without leverage is difficult, but some options are;

1. Tricom at $140 per trade or so (but you need to deal with them on the phone)
2. CommSec will let you short daytrade (but will close all shorts by the end of the day), and
3. TraderDealer have an online shorting stock borrowing/shorting facility.

Shorting with real physical shares isn't cheap nor convenient and is much easier to do with CFDs - you don't have to use the leverage if you don't want to. Also, there's always a chance that the real shares could be recalled and your position closed without you wanting it to be. I have no idea how common or rare this is.

Another gotcha with shorting to be aware of is you are liable to pay any dividends whilst you're short.

And another gotcha with CFD providers is that if the underlying goes into a trading halt, you'll have to pony up 100% of the margin.

And for the TradeSim people im guessing you can design systems that go short on this program just as easy as those that go long, but universe will become more of a consideration as you probably cant short every stock on the asx...

Yes, TradeSim can simulate short trading as well as long trading.

There's a list on the ASX of shortable stocks which is fairly restrictive. TraderDealer have a slightly larger universe, and CFD providers a larger universe again.

I'll save you some testing time: systematic long term trend following only works going long, not short (the lowest a share can go is zero, but there is no limit on how high it can go).

(Actually, on second thoughts - better to prove this yourself to your satisfaction.)

 

[wayneL]

Without leverage is difficult, but some options are;

1. Tricom at $140 per trade or so (but you need to deal with them on the phone)
2. CommSec will let you short daytrade (but will close all shorts by the end of the day), and
3. TraderDealer have an online shorting stock borrowing/shorting facility.

Shorting with real physical shares isn't cheap nor convenient and is much easier to do with CFDs - you don't have to use the leverage if you don't want to. Also, there's always a chance that the real shares could be recalled and your position closed without you wanting it to be. I have no idea how common or rare this is.

This is one of the main reasons I moved to trade stocks in the Evil Empire.

Want to short a stock? Just press sell. Brokerage is still < $0.01 per share.

Re recalling shares: Has not happened to me, but has happened that shortable shares to borrow are not available.... even happened on QQQQ once. But is quite rare really.

 

[nizar]

I'll save you some testing time: systematic long term trend following only works going long, not short (the lowest a share can go is zero, but there is no limit on how high it can go).

(Actually, on second thoughts - better to prove this yourself to your satisfaction.)

What you're saying makes sense, but Then what do you say to guys like Ed Seykota or Bill Dunn, trend followers that (claim to) just as easily in down as in uptrends.

 

[wayneL]

What you're saying makes sense, but Then what do you say to guys like Ed Seykota or Bill Dunn, trend followers that (claim to) just as easily in down as in uptrends.

They trade commodities, a different kettle of fish.