Discretionary trading attitude

CanOz said:

Well...that's err, some ... ahem...pretty decent size ya got there!

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Nah just a few trades,

Gringotts Bank said:

It's not that I am wanting you or tech to fail. I put up the challenge to illustrate a point, and that is that the fear of public humiliation would cause you to falter in your judgments and thereby lose money during the challenge. That would then prove my point about how psychology (fear in particular) can cause a distortion in perception and subsequently, poor trading results. As you know, successful traders see the market how it actually is, free of such distortions. When you first started trading large sums of money at the prop firm, you got the willys and your performance suffered in line with that, remember?

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Oh god, that means nothing dude if you haven't the skills to trade. Which you have repeatedly shown by your own admission. Thats everyone else point including mine. Forget the phyco/mystic mumbo jumbo and do yourself a favour. LEARN HOW TO TRADE FIRST.

Worry about the last 5% when and if you ever get there.

Trembling Hand said:

Nah just a few trades,
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Oh god, that means nothing dude if you haven't the skills to trade. Which you have repeatedly shown by your own admission. Thats everyone else point including mine. Forget the phyco/mystic mumbo jumbo and do yourself a favour. LEARN HOW TO TRADE FIRST.

Worry about the last 5% when and if you ever get there.

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Do you know what caused the poor performance this morning?

If you both have IB accounts you can get your scores independently assessed here...

http://rapacapintro.com/account/leaderboard/landingpage

also GB if you are particularly good they will portion you off some capital to manage.. (accounts have to be LIVE though, so this may hurt your chances GB)

white_goodman said:

If you both have IB accounts you can get your scores independently assessed here...

http://rapacapintro.com/account/leaderboard/landingpage

also GB if you are particularly good they will portion you off some capital to manage.. (accounts have to be LIVE though, so this may hurt your chances GB)

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I'm trading prop and GB will need $10,000 to open an account.

Gringotts Bank said:

Do you know what caused the poor performance this morning?

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Yeah trades that failed!!

white_goodman said:

If you both have IB accounts you can get your scores independently assessed here...

http://rapacapintro.com/account/leaderboard/landingpage

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Never heard of them, good idea though.

Something you are involved in WG?

I put up the challenge to illustrate a point, and that is that the fear of public humiliation would cause you to falter in your judgments.

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There is no fear if you've been trading a robust model with proven results.

What everyone is trying to say is that methodology is far far more important that psychology.

Trembling Hand said:

Nah just a few trades,
View attachment 51398

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Makes me feel much better about my day... down 3, up 5, flat and now up 3. If I plot my daily P&L in candle chart they have pretty long tails...

prawn_86 said:

Never heard of them, good idea though.

Something you are involved in WG?

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ive got an account on there, no stake in the mob that run it

skc said:

Makes me feel much better about my day... down 3, up 5, flat and now up 3. If I plot my daily P&L in candle chart they have pretty long tails...

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She is certainly moving intraday thats for sure. The HSI seems like a different beast last few weeks.

skyQuake said:

There is no fear if you've been trading a robust model with proven results.

What everyone is trying to say is that methodology is far far more important that psychology.

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Agree SC to a point

You start with a robust model then sim it to death to gain the skill that feeds in building a robust psychology then you are ready to trade.

Even after this the market will beat you around the head

Generally most rush of to trade making losses destroying their psychology using crap discussion making processes = fail.

IMHO

IFocus said:

Agree SC to a point

You start with a robust model then sim it to death to gain the skill that feeds in building a robust psychology then you are ready to trade.

Even after this the market will beat you around the head

Generally most rush of to trade making losses destroying their psychology using crap discussion making processes = fail.

IMHO

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I agree with it too. That's a solid way to trade.

I've said this quite a few times already - I'm talking about discretionary trading. Some define discretionary trading as "mechanical trading that has been imprinted on the subconscious". In this definition, you're not using the conscious mind to make decisions, but your gut feel triggered by the subconscious. In this definition, discretionary trading is likened to learning a sport and "muscle memory" - ie. do it over and over until it's automatic. In this type of definition, gut feel would be triggered by your accumulated memories of thousands of trades. In this way, when a pennant appears and it's edging towards a breakout, and the volume is low and so on....the discretionary trader automatically references
all past instances of this and many other combinations. Then comes the immediate response. The discretionary trader isn't thinking consciously...like a footballer in the middle of a pack, there's no time for thinking...you just act.

But this is not how I define discretionary trading. I believe that trading from subconscious memory is disastrous, because unlike you (yes you, reading this!) I've tested this hypothesis. I've had years and years of watching charts, and I can tell you that even 10 years of close watching will not get you remotely close to being a good discretionary trader if we are to use that old definition (above).

So I propose a new definition and I'm also testing it empirically. Let me call it pure discretionary trading so as to separate it form the traditional definition.

Pure discretionary trading is trading which:

-- is free from the distortions of memory, even the memory of 10000 successful or unsuccessful trades
-- it is free from such distortions because it makes absolutely no reference to the past; each chart is seen afresh
-- sees the price (or depth) as it is in this moment, not as you expect or want it to be
-- demands that you to get beyond your mind, since mind is solely concerned with gain and loss and will distort how you interpret data. This is the key requirement - shutting off mind.
-- is unconcerned with outcome

To do this properly requires a certain approach. From the comments received so far, I suspect this is not something that most people are ready to look into. However I just wanted to explain my position. I believe this is the way the top .01% trade.

Trade the way you want to trade.

Gringotts Bank said:

To do this properly requires a certain approach. From the comments received so far, I suspect this is not something that most people are ready to look into. However I just wanted to explain my position. I believe this is the way the top .01% trade.

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LOL GB I guess if you cannot do it systematically and you cannot do it the discretionary way then all you get left is religion!!

By the way. How would you actually know what the true top traders do? The guys that take $100,000 a day, day in day. The ones that have only had 1 down month in 8 years!! How do you know what they do? How do you know what the guys that turn over 100 mil a day do? Ever seen any of them trade?

Trembling Hand said:

LOL GB I guess if you cannot do it systematically and you cannot do it the discretionary way then all you get left is religion!!

By the way. How would you actually know what the true top traders do? The guys that take $100,000 a day, day in day. The ones that have only had 1 down month in 8 years!! How do you know what they do? How do you know what the guys that turn over 100 mil a day do? Ever seen any of them trade?

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You sound like your account is down again today.

Actually I can do it with a system, but you never read my posts, do you?

Pure discretionary trading is trading which:

-- is free from the distortions of memory, even the memory of 10000 successful or unsuccessful trades
-- it is free from such distortions because it makes absolutely no reference to the past; each chart is seen afresh
-- sees the price (or depth) as it is in this moment, not as you expect or want it to be
-- demands that you to get beyond your mind, since mind is solely concerned with gain and loss and will distort how you interpret data. This is the key requirement - shutting off mind.
-- is unconcerned with outcome

To do this properly requires a certain approach. From the comments received so far, I suspect this is not something that most people are ready to look into. However I just wanted to explain my position. I believe this is the way the top .01% trade.

Trade the way you want to trade.

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So no opinion
No expectation of gain or loss.
I think you mean shutting off emotion.
Shutting off mind would be interesting I could make a profit while asleep at the screen---or anywhere really.

GG
If your evaluating data without reference to past outcomes---how is it that your evaluating?
If each chart is seen a fresh ---- and the mind has no opinion or expectation--whats the point of the chart?
So the now is now---how do you know which direction in which to trade it?

Your describing gut feel--Guessing.
If it was practical you would see it pedaled on Clairvoyant sites.

Hang on Your going to start a new methodology!!!
People will pay $1000s to get to be in your 1%
and those that don't---well they just haven't evolved-----

Gringotts Bank said:

You sound like your account is down again today.

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My market aint open yet buddy. Thought such a guru would know when Asian markets open.

Gringotts Bank said:

Actually I can do it with a system, but you never read my posts, do you?

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Everything I've seen from you lead to thinking that you cannot. Certainly you have never show 100 or more trades represented for any sort of evaluation.

But anyway before you go about trying to emulate the top guns how do you know what they do? Can you answer me that?

Trembling Hand said:

My market aint open yet buddy. Thought such a guru would know when Asian markets open.



Everything I've seen from you lead to thinking that you cannot. Certainly you have never show 100 or more trades represented for any sort of evaluation.

But anyway before you go about trying to emulate the top guns how do you know what they do? Can you answer me that?

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Just some interviews I've read. Does it matter? I have a hypothesis and I'm testing it. Is that allowed, or do you have a rule against that?

Gringotts Bank said:

Just some interviews I've read. Does it matter? I have a hypothesis and I'm testing it. Is that allowed, or do you have a rule against that?

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Nah thats fine. Good luck. Look forward to the live test results.









When you do actually want to know and see how they trade when this side trip in the woods is over come ask me.

Trembling Hand said:

Nah thats fine. Good luck. Look forward to the live test results.









When you do actually want to know and see how they trade when this side trip in the woods is over come ask me.

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I already have asked you, earlier in this thread. I am genuinely interested in the way you trade. Your response was "what peter said".

tech/a said:

So no opinion
No expectation of gain or loss.
I think you mean shutting off emotion.
Shutting off mind would be interesting I could make a profit while asleep at the screen---or anywhere really.

GG
If your evaluating data without reference to past outcomes---how is it that your evaluating?
If each chart is seen a fresh ---- and the mind has no opinion or expectation--whats the point of the chart?
So the now is now---how do you know which direction in which to trade it?

Your describing gut feel--Guessing.
If it was practical you would see it pedaled on Clairvoyant sites.

Hang on Your going to start a new methodology!!!
People will pay $1000s to get to be in your 1%
and those that don't---well they just haven't evolved-----

Click to expand...

You can shut off the mind and still be conscious and functional - that's what "being in the zone" means.

How is it that I'm evaluating? There is no evaluation. Evaluation is what the mind does and if the mind is switched off, then there can be no evaluation. All that's left is spontaneous action.

There's no reference to one's personal past history of trading. However one still looks at the stock's history. The right move just appears on its own. You don't think it out.