Daniel Kertcher/Trading Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Response to Trojan

Trojan said:

It is not widely known, but Daniel Kertcher's Platinum Pursuits Growth Plus Hedge Fund made no money ($0) in over a year of active trading using all the same strategies he teaches.

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Platinum Pursuits (Daniel Kertcher) was involved in the Growth Plus Hedge Fund, in a Customer Relations capacity only, between August 2007 and September 2008 and was never involved in the portfolio management for the product.

During the period of Platinum Pursuits’ involvement with the product, Platinum Pursuits did provide advice and opinion regarding trading strategies to the portfolio manager Mastering Wealth, but it was at the portfolio manager’s discretion whether or not to implement that advice.

During the period of Platinum Pursuits involvement, the fund (a USA market based investment product), outperformed the S&P 500 Index in Australian dollar terms (which is how the unit price of the product was quoted) by about 17.5%. In other words, the US market fell roughly 17.5% in Aussie dollar terms over that same time period, while the Growth Plus Hedge Fund had not. So in that highly negative market environment, an outcome of not losing any client funds over that period was an excellent result, and not only represented a significant outperformance of the market but demonstrated the importance of hedging strategies during market downturns.

Trojan said:

Mr Kertcher then handed the Fund over to a company called Mastering Wealth under director Mr Bill Ryan whom he worked with. That company, operating in Castle Hill NSW, lost 95% of public investment capital using all the same strategies they teach and without capital protection.

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Platinum Pursuits advised fund investors of their intention to cease involvement with the product, and end their role as client relationship manager, prior to their withdrawal in September 2008. The withdrawal from the product was due to the portfolio manager, Mastering Wealth, acquiring sufficient capability to handle the customer relationship management in-house. Once again, Platinum Pursuits was never the investment manager for this product.

Mastering Wealth, acting completely independently of Platinum Pursuits and without any involvement by Platinum Pursuits, after September 2008 did appear to change the trading strategies used according to their investment management discretion as granted in the product disclosure statement. It seems that significant losses were subsequently incurred, however to be fair the global back-drop for these losses was a significant market correction event now known as the Global Financial Crisis.

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Hi Matteo

Thank you very much for this info. I really appreciate this.

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

wayneL said:

tracernet,

Why not just trade OTM short puts?

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Yes, I do. The returns are a lot better BUT if the stock hits the strike or breakeven and you want to close out it costs a LOT more whereas a covered call you just get stopped out. On the same note, you can't have a guaranteed stop loss so there is more risk if the share gaps below the breakeven.

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

tracernet said:

Yes, I do. The returns are a lot better BUT if the stock hits the strike or breakeven and you want to close out it costs a LOT more

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Costs a lot more in terms of what?

The put will have increasing intrinsic value which means you pay more the the put than you sold it for, but you don't have the stock moving against you.

On the other hand, the CFD portion of the CC is hurting most.

Apart from slightly more contest risk with the CC, if of same strike and expiry, because of synthetic equivalence it's going to cost you the same to exit.

whereas a covered call you just get stopped out.

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Hang on! What gets stopped out? The CFD? Both the CFD and the call? If so you have two stops to trigger, one of those is to close the short option at market.

I can also set up a contingency order on a short put.... {if underlying trades at x, buy to close put at market}

AKA A Stop Loss!!

Plus it is only one stop to trigger.

On the same note, you can't have a guaranteed stop loss so there is more risk if the share gaps below the breakeven.

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Will GS (which will still mean a hefty loss on the position) compensate for the additional contest risk incurred on every position taken. I think not. The mathematics of GS mean than IG make a profit overall from the extra cost of GS stop.

IOW they make more from taking the other side of your contest risk than they lose from covering additional stock losses greater than GS point.

Think about that.

On every level, this PP 'strategy' is just a convoluted and more expensive synthetic put.

If people knew their option theory properly they wouldn't fall for it.

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Matteo said:

Really? Is that the best you can offer? I take a lot of time to give an unbiased account of a course so that people can make an informed decision, and the best you can do is take a pot shot at my decision to take the course? Blimey! The fact is plenty of people will consider taking the course, and hopefully some of them will read this and then have a better understanding of what the strategy involves and whether it is for them or not. This post is not about me!!

Whether or not I am successful with my trading is irrelevent. Do you really think that the worlds most successful traders just have one strategy? The strategy offered by Daniel is completely different to anything that I currently do, and there is great appeal in having a more passive strategy that can be pretty much set and forget (though as I pointed out that's not really the case). Before this course had even been created I had thought that writing calls on cfd's would be a really good strategy, but thought it was not possible. When I heard about the course I was really interested, and the fact is the only way to be able to use the strategy was to do the course (which meant forking out the $$$'s). I don't like spending that sort of money on a course but I felt on this occasion it was justifiable. And I don't regret it even though I am disappointed with some of the details that were left out of the introductory seminar and promotional material. People have different reasons for doing things, and it's really not your place to question my motives for doing the course.

As I said before, this can still be a very good strategy for the right person. If I was trading a $100k bank there is a fair chance I would have recouped most if not all of the costs of the course already in only 2 months and that in a market not really conducive to good returns. That's not bad at all, however only time will tell how successful it is over the long term. But traders with smaller accounts, and inexperienced traders, need to think carefully whether it is for them.

Cheers.

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Matteo

I liked both of your postings.
In fact you have been very rational to explain your experience in an unbiased way where as you coughed $3200.
I often ask the question if people like Daniels are so clever why no tthey make millions themselves and stop charging a course fee. It is like Harvard Professors who teach but can not do it . Classic American economy today where all five top Management institutions and financial institutions are in USA.
I thank you for sharing your experience and do not worry for the sarcastic noise from some people - that is life.

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

If anyone is interested I cant attend the trading course and would like to sell my course to someone for $3000

Please contact me if your interested.

Shane

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Hi all, I'm an experienced trader of 8-1/2 years. Would like to just give my 2cents opinion. I have traded options, stocks, futures and forex. My personal advice is don't touch options and futures, neither covered calls. Is not the game for most ppl or making good income source. If you really like to start trading, the right step is to learn how to trade forex and stock and again avoid trading forex and stock with OPTIONS*

Why? Because I have done so, tried & persisted for many years. My result is don't follow my mistake. It's not the game for most ppl including myself. The risk is just too high. (your chance of winning is 1 out of 3) compare to 50-50 chance with long/short on regular stock or forex. Some ppl have some success with covered calls but myself I'd better put my money to long/short stock and generate more money than having a large amount of money tide out each month for little premium.

It's just like playing a roulette, options&futures you are betting on a specific number to win. (low probability but high reward if win). Forex and Stock on the other hand, you are betting on just red or black. 50-50 chance, winning ratio of just 1:1

I personally think is wrong to teach ppl options or futures trading as I'd advice everyone I know to avoid. Also it takes a lot of time and effort to learn how to be profitable. Depends on individual. Myself i spent 5 years to pursue my success with options, nearly failed all the time due to high risk, to a state I see no point to continue to lose money so i stopped. Took break for a year, till a friend introduced me to Forex in 2010. I was so enthusiased when she said you didn't have to pay commission and only need a small amount to start.

So there I knew I already have the knowledge and skills and would like to give it a go. I tried many times with little money to start with. My experience is I tend to get emotion and close out a lot of my big wins with little gains and sometimes with losses. It took me a long time to discover that it was the capital that got me emotion.
2 months ago, I started to put more capital in. Myself, $8k -$10k to feel comfortable. Trading with almost a lot less emotion and more confident when i see more wins than losses. Eg, i have done 56 trades in August, 47 wins and 9 losses. 58 trades in September, 44 wins and 14 losses. While this month so far done 23 trades with 20 wins and 3 losses.

I've attached a screenshot of my latest trades. I believe if you take the right advice, right move, do your own research and study. You will eventually be able to earn enough to replace you job income and continue to grow a lot more later. So myself, if I have capital of $100k, I am almost confident that I can turn that amount into $200k or more with Forex and Stock trading. This is just from my personal experience, take it or leave it is totally up to everyone. Happy trading and wish you all be successful one day!!

Cheers
William

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

whau,

Your premise is all wrong.

Although I do not believe PP offers good options education, it does not make options and future trading invalid.

In fact you contradict yourself by advocating forex, another leveraged derivative.

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Yes they are both leverage and we do need leverage to make money

Except one is derivative leverage and one is margin leverage

Derivative leverage,
eg, options and futures, your only way of making money is directional trade within a specific period, you have to be extremely good in spotting trend which will move strongly short time to make money. Otherwise options will expire worthless or a lower value than your call/put price (you lose it’s time value even the price stays the same or goes slight above your favor on expiration day). Simply put, when comes to volatility or time when you spot a trading opportunity, my experience, I tend to see high premium, which will increase the risk of buying put/call. High premium means it will discourage you to go for extra month, as you have to pay a lot more for time value. Your other option is you break the rule of going 1 strike price ITM by going for 1-4 strike price out of the money options. Either way, you most likely going to lose money compare to just long/short with margin leverage with 50-50 chance of winning, no expiration day to hold onto your trades. Others tend to teach options straddle, spread trading, I've tried all that, similar result.

Margin Leverage,
Currently I have shorted google stock with margin (due to market peak), igmarkets is giving 200:1 leverage, means for $1000 I can buy $200,000 stock. But do I really trade $200,000 on stock. The answer is absolutely no. I only trade $5-10k worth of stock if I only have $1000 capital. I dont have to stress about getting margin call and have my trade close out by the broker. That btw never occured to me. The same approach I use, I lost money with options. It's hard to explain but it's up to anyone who'd like to experiment themselves to decide how they can profit from trading options. It's not my game for sure.

I can give you one example, in 2008 financial crisis, a friend who used margin leverage to short google the same time I bought put options, The result- she made very good money while my put options on google expired worthless when google dropped more than $50 to my favour. The reason i remembered that 1 ITM put options was selling way too high (around $35.xx put for 1 ITM ). So much I decided to break the rule by buying 3-4 strike price OTM put options, same goes to many stocks (crazy premium). Even DK teaches you to find a good premium with little time value. In reality, you may want to experiment yourself to see if you can spot stocks with little time value during time of high volatility. I’m not saying that options you can’t make money. It’s just not the game for everyone. I am sure they are ppl who can trade well with options. Myself if I have to pay $3500 for 1 put options giving only 3-4 weeks to expiration, I would rather short the stock for $20k with margin and set a stoploss of $35 on the stock price.

High margin leverage is dangerous as I have learnt, for brokers, they would like to give us 400:1 and 200:1, but for professional traders, we only like to set our account with 20:1 or 50:1 margin leverage.

You don't have to take my word for it, it's just my personal experience of many years.

Cheers
William

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

We need leverage to make money?

Therein lies your problem William. First and foremost, one must decide their risk and money management/position sizing parameters. Once that is decided, leverage becomes almost irrelevant. Conventional trading wisdom says 2% risk per trade maximum. That means the same number of GOOG CFDs should be used as shares.

CFDs should therefore offer some other advantage over shares.

As far as options go, they are non-linear and complex with differing risks..... and rewards. The high premium you mention creates a risk, but also offers an opportunity.

I will agree that a straight out directional/trend/swing trade may be better traded with a linear instrument, but there are instances where options may offer an advantage. The traders job is discerning which instrument to use or to stand aside from the opportunity.

I can see from your GOOG put example that you made a mistake with your Greeks. That's not the instrument's fault, that is your fault. I guess the counterparty made money from your trade... but you did not take the lesson from that, just blamed the instrument... You tried to hammer a square peg into a round hole.

In the self same crash, I used options to acquire selected banking shares, sell premium and modify my risk/reward profile. Having extracted my initial capital, I have $0 dollars in a share holding that continues to offer opportunities to extract cash via options.

Yes they are more difficult to trade and most should probably stay away. I have spoken out against seminar clowns promoting single strategy "panaceas". No one strategy suits every time market, but there is a time for every strategy.

If you just want to trade direction without complication, options are not your instrument, but they work well for others types of trading.

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Hi William,
Firstly, well done on so many winning trades.
Im not sure I necessarily agree with your view on a few things but thats what makes up the market, people with differing views, otherwise known as buyers and sellers.

While leverage can be very dangerous, I dont see it as a big issue if strong money management and risk management techniques are adopted.
Options arent the enemy either. Im assuming the options youve been exposed to have been for a matter of weeks rather than months? Have you ever considered LEAPS?
Also when it comes to Forex options, depending on Vol, they can be very cheap.

Im not one that studies the Greeks nor care too much for them, what I watch is Volatility, and keep an eye on Delta, Theta etc. In the end of the day, my philosophy is when Volatility is low, Options are for buying, and when it is high, options are for selling.

You make some very nice points too.
Personally I dont mind DK's method of investing as I prefer to trade fundamentally and the short term noise, technicals etc do my head in. I feel like I may as well be reading tea leaves when I look at things from a short term nature.

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

I will make this as short as possible.

A very good friend of mine alerted me to this forum and I am glad she did.

When Matteo mentioned the cost of $3,200, I remembered that I paid the same amount for Daniel Kertcher's Tradeability Course in 2009.

Daniel said then, and he has been proven right, that women make better traders than men. Honestly, I don't want to make any sexist remarks (especially with a name like Alvin Purple), but women are much better at following rules, while men tend to regard trading as an ego trip, a battle that has to be won with sheer bravado.

Once I realised that, I allowed my feminine side to predominate and have achieved very consistent, positive results for the last three years following Daniel's teachings and the trade recommendations contained in his monthly income report, which, at $490 per year is very good value and much cheaper than other publications.

The course materials of Trading Pursuits are of high quality, the email support offered is excellent and how anybody could even remotely associate the word "scam" with Daniel or Trading Pursuits is beyond the comprehension of a reasonable person. Ask yourself this: Would the authorities allow Daniel to operate in this country if he was a scammer? Obviously not.

The most important lesson I have learnt is that you absolutely must "paper trade" in a demo account for at least three months. I did that, made a few mistakes, learned from them and never made those mistakes again once I started trading with real money.

I can now look back on three years of successful trading. There has not been a month where I have made a loss and the average return has been in the vicinity of 30% + p.a. which I personally find very satisfactory.

I am happy to recommend Daniel's course. And please, follow the rules. (I am not a licensed financial advisor)

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Alvin, I would not just be glad you were alerted to this forum.

I would be very glad.

Read this.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2004/s1048152.htm

gg

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?



When it comes to Educators and these workshops/courses that promote being able to trade profitably like Platinum Pursuits, Optionetics, Safety in the Market etc etc I don’t agree necessarily that they are scammers, but would be more inclined to say they package and sell products that a bit of reading/investigation and web searches most people couldn’t come up with themselves and for very little cost.

Trading however takes more than having a good method, you need the right mindset and the discipline to stick to a plan and this is were most people who do these courses will fail and then blame the system, most as well are beginners and have totally unrealistic expectations, mind you that’s not helped by the spruikers who make the promise of easy money through minimal effort once you have done the course and as anyone who has traded for a number of years will tell you there’s no such thing as easy money in this game or any other come to think of it.

One thing that does puzzle me when theres a thread about a certain course or seminar, the amount of people who come on saying how great the course/workshop was and never post again

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Alvin Purple said:

I will make this as short as possible.

A very good friend of mine alerted me to this forum and I am glad she did.

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Garpal Gumnut said:

Alvin, I would not just be glad you were alerted to this forum.

I would be very glad.

Read this.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2004/s1048152.htm

gg

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You were so glad to be directed to this forum and you have not replied, so I will increase your gladness by quoting from the 730 Report on Daniel Kertcher, just to increase your gladness, for no other reason.

TIM LESTER: Daniel Kertcher took his seminars across the Tasman to windy Wellington two years ago.

PHIL MITCHELL: A 100 per cent money back guarantee.

TIM LESTER: With an advertisement that caught the eye of NZ consumer journalist Phil Mitchell.

PHIL MITCHELL: They're saying I can make 331 per cent return in three months.

GEK MUI LEE, WEALTH SEMINAR STUDENT: Financial independence, you know, you could give up your job.

You could just live on trading full time eventually.

TIM LESTER: So Wellington resident Gek Mui Lee enrolled in a Daniel Kertcher seminar.

GEK MUI LEE: He once said if you are quadriplegic and all you could do is blink, you could do options trading.

I beg to differ.

TIM LESTER: Phil Mitchell did the same course.

He and Gek Mui Lee both then followed up with fellow students almost a year later.

GEK MUI LEE: Maybe two of them were just breaking even.

The rest of the people lost money or were too afraid to try.

PHIL MITCHELL, NZ CONSUMER JOURNALIST: Overwhelmingly, people had lost money and a great deal of money and very quickly.

TIM LESTER: How much money?

PHIL MITCHELL: An average loss of $10,000.

TIM LESTER: Though he calculates that one person did really well - Daniel Kertcher, selling students his seminar package for a hefty NZ dollar price.

PHIL MITCHELL: 65 times $4,250 is not a bad return for three days work.

That is nearly $300,000.

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TIM LESTER: Phil Mitchell's article in NZ's consumer magazine stirred Daniel Kertcher to threaten legal action.

He insists one third of students in the Wellington course in question made money.

And another 12 didn't even bother to trade.

That still leaves plenty of losers.

But Daniel Kertcher isn't apologising.

Rather, he has organised seminars for five Australian capital cities in the next few months.

If you can't get to see him, no problem.

There are plenty of others selling their own gold maps and they're not hard to spot.

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All gladness to you Alvin.

gg

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Dear Garpal Gumnut,

sorry I couldn't reply earlier but this weekend was options expiry weekend and I was kept very busy collecting all the profits. You see, this month has been one of my best months since I started trading seriously (ie with real money) about three years ago.

I was fully aware of that 2004 7.30 Report item which ended up proving nothing. I think it was a vain attempt to outdo Current Affairs and This Day Tonight.

I agree there are a lot of scammers and so-called "gurus" out there and I have learnt to stay well clear of them.

When I decided to do Daniel's course I did my due diligence and when I found that he was not on any authority's "Wanted" list, I was happy to part with my $3200 and I am glad I did. I have never had a losing month and my annualised returns are always well above 30 % p.a. (and I mean very well above). My initial investment has been returned to me one hundredfold.

It is, of course, possible, that some people take the same course, but don't follow the rules, go off at a tangent and then are wondering why they are losing money. Believe me, I know some people who have done just that.

Did I mention that trading is 80 % psychology (also known as "mindset") and 20 % strategy? That is an absolute fact and I am sure that the likes of Tony Robbins, Chris Howard, Pat Mesiti, Dr. John DeMartini etc. etc. will wholeheartedly agree. I have been to many of their free seminars and got many of their free DVDs. I never found it necessary to invest the thousands of dollars these guys ask for their paid seminars and workshops as I have learnt the formula some time ago: Find your passion, make you passion your profession and take massive action.

I am not likely to post just once and then never again. Most likely I'll post again after the February option expiry which is on 16 February, unless something worthwhile to talk about comes up in the meantime.

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Zzz...zzz...zzz...zzz

The standard here is to substantiate claims. You can do that with brokers statements confidentially submitted to the site admin., or posting trades as you put them on.

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

What is inescapable with any option trading, whether promulgated by a schmarmy spruiker or by some clown on the interwebzzz, is that options will always conform closely to one or another options pricing model (nuances duly noted).

The PP program is, at its core, a synthetic version of bog standard (i.e. natural) strategy, viz, the naked OTM put. Returns will conform to those leptokurtic probabilities of the natural strategy.

There is no way of getting around that, not even with clever cliches' and white patent shoes.

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

wayneL said:

What is inescapable with any option trading, whether promulgated by a schmarmy spruiker or by some clown on the interwebzzz, is that options will always conform closely to one or another options pricing model (nuances duly noted).

The PP program is, at its core, a synthetic version of bog standard (i.e. natural) strategy, viz, the naked OTM put. Returns will conform to those leptokurtic probabilities of the natural strategy.

There is no way of getting around that, not even with clever cliches' and white patent shoes.

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Wayne, I doubt Alvin would have any idea what you mean... And the money he's collected may not cover losses on the stock (or whatever else he has in place) to cover the short but, if it's anything like I was taught on covered call type trading, you don't look at that. You only count the proceeds of the short.

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Well Daniel..... oops, I mean Alvin has checked in since since my invitation to substantiate his claims of 30% + returns and implied >$320,000 profits.

As I suspected, nothing.

It reminds me of the days of the "Dimitri Strategy" (as if nobody ever thought of bull put spreads before ). They all thought they found the money tree, until Mr Market decided their arrogant stupid @55es needed to be taught a lesson.