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Dangerous building materials

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I pity anybody who has an apartment that was built by the same builder as Mascot Towers. They too will suffer a huge financial loss even if no defects are found.
 
bellenuit said:
I pity anybody who has an apartment that was built by the same builder as Mascot Towers. They too will suffer a huge financial loss even if no defects are found.
Click to expand...

Do you know who the builder was ?

I can't find any reference to them.
 
Interesting discussion.

I think it time to add some clarity.
Due to time this will be a to the point condensed version.

This is scary and here is why.

The problem lies in
Accountability.
Profit
Free trade

Accountability

Architects and engineers will specify a product or equivalent.
Large builders are on the whole Project managers they dont
supply material or construction crews.
Their sub contractors supply the materials as specified or equivalent.
The sub contractors generally have to supply paperwork for compliance
The sub contractors gain that paperwork for compliance from the Supplier.

If that paperwork is trusted then its accepted. If like we do we ask for an independent
in Australia test and our supplier supplies the sample for testing and it comes back OK
then you'd think that's OK---RIGHT. Remember you wont be the only client so there is a
vested interest in the product being passed.

So when product arrives we supply the sample ---- and initially guess what--it didn't pass.
Now every sample we supply passes--the Supplier was forced to comply and guess what
the complying material isn't any MORE EXPENSIVE!

So the rejected material was picked up then put on the market at 50% of what we were asked to pay for it.
So now we had a bigger problem --- we comply we lose business because people dont
do their jobs and only care about the bottom line. Some found it self onto the commercial market
most went to the domestic market!!

So in the chain of accountability WHO is accountable? Who (Its a Long Chain) is liable and how do you
make them accountable?

Profit and free trade.

40% is often the difference in price with comparable equivalents.
Principal contractors want the projects
Sub contractors want the project.
Suppliers want to sell their products
Not everyone is honest and or quality orientated.
Most are struggling to keep their staff employed because margins are
forced lower by EQUIVALENTS.

Catch 22.

Quick story to bring home the Money point.

A drive motor goes in one of my Excavators Genuine part $12,350 + GST Plus Fitting
Non genuine $7500 + GST. Plus fitting
Ali Barber. Supply all Photos and Part numbers and buy an Equivalent $890 US + GST
Fitted $2200 + GST AU.
A small amount of tweaking and 2 years later all good and still going.

You wonder why???
 
Architects and engineers are often to blame as well. General rule of thumb is you install as to the plan.
I've had to alert the builders a few times when the plan was not to Australian standard.

I don't think there is much accountability from their end either?
 
moXJO

Have done that.
Competitor was chosen and we notified about the product
They supplied a certificate of Compliance.
---Product used.
---Product not compliant.
They eventually tested it due to some failure.

So who's Liable?
 
I was thinking about what would happen if this was an electrical issue much of which is covered by an act of Parliament and regulated by an inspection group.

Basically move out side of the Australia Standards (engineering design, construction, materials, testing sign off) and some one would turn up and shoot you its mostly black and white.

Worked for a long time as an electrical supervisor mining / chemical manufacturing hardly had a day go past where other disciplines would try to move the goal posts on what was a level of acceptance usually about cost or time.

My world was pretty much black and white with a national standard that determined what was acceptable which I had to remind many a site manager that I would be the first to face charges and be convicted and he would be 2nd.

Showing the long list of convictions always ended the conversation.
 
I'll say two words and no I'm not being racist.

Chinese steel.

Lots of it around and the problems are extremely well known. It's cheap though.....

That's a comment about doing things properly not about Australian industry protection. No problem if it's from Japan, Germany, France, UK, USA, Canada, NZ, South Korea or any other place that does things properly just avoid the known poor quality stuff.

Then there's the competency of those doing the work. Suffice to say that right at this moment my pet hate is those who should but do not understand, or choose to ignore, galvanic corrosion. It ain't rocket science, it's high school level stuff really, but all too often ignored. Galvanized steel in contact with copper and there's stainless as well and yes it's wet. What could go wrong......
 
tech/a said:
moXJO

Have done that.
Competitor was chosen and we notified about the product
They supplied a certificate of Compliance.
---Product used.
---Product not compliant.
They eventually tested it due to some failure.

So who's Liable?
Click to expand...
Whoever provided the certificate should be. But this is often an overseas certification with no comeback.
 
Yes Correct.
But what if the sample presented complied and the bulk shipment didn't.
So a sample supplied to an Australian certifier complies its not taken directly from
the shipment. Its supplied by the Supplier middle manning. It complies so no
comeback on him or the Certify-er but material taken from site doesn't!

So there are a number of people protecting a number of people.
All shrug and say thats what we have all certified we cant
certify a whole ship load individually.

You see the problem---and it has happened.
 

I've experienced their metal practices, like backing off chromium content in stainless steel so it looks like stainless but rusts after a few months in the elements. Metal not to required spec so same thickness supplied but due to lower strength can't support applied weight.

I would never trust any steel from them, unless you literally stood at the container and watched them test samples to prove specified properties before it was sent.

If company's haven't checked the metal is to spec l would assume it would be very high probability it is not right.
 
bellenuit said:
I've no idea. I'm surprised the press hasn't found out yet and published a list of other apartments they built.
Click to expand...

I think there is a high chance its because of the above.
Plus the builder may well be huge.
The consequences on ALL levels are massive.

Loss of jobs and potentially lives.

Imagine if it was traced back to a particular over seas source
and was the same as the UK and elsewhere---Im sure its not
limited to UK and AUST.

I think that people underestimate how big this could turn out to be.
lots of buildings fall down in third world countries.
Wait until one falls down in a first world country while using third
world country product!

Anyway back to the popcorn gallery.
 
As people have already mentioned, even if there is a compliance certificate, it would have limitations, to cover the person certifying it.
The practice of sub letting out the work, is fraught with danger. I had a second storey addition added to my house, it was carried out by a well known company, they subbied out 95% of the work.
If I wasn't there 100% of the time, a lot of corners would have been cut, it really was appalling.
I would never recommend doing it unless you can oversee the project.
 
SP
We are talking Multi Million Dollar Developments.
Its the way things are done.
Specialists in Civil
Plumbing
Engineering
Concrete
Steel Prefabrication
First and second fix
Security

The list is endless.
These sub contract companies are often Multi Million dollar
companies in their own right.

I don't know of one company that has all in house everything.
Anywhere in the world.
 


Meanwhile, a shipment of steel Areva imported from China was of such poor quality it had to be buried as scrap; then a company in Newcastle making another key component went into administration.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/fas...lar-boost-project-failed-20170516-gw5p2u.html
 
Steel has started coming from Vietnam now. Free trade agreements and no chinese tariffs. Some of it is really good.

I've seen gal steel rusting away in containers before it even makes australia that was apparently certified AS in China.
 
They screw the subbies to the point that you are doing it for wages. In turn subbies don't give a crap. Or you end up with the bottom of the barrel. Happens a lot.
 
China does have some top products at a fraction of the price. It's finding the suppliers that have it. They will do all kinds of things to rip you off as well.
If it comes in packs of 20 they will only pack 18.
Just pack the front of the container and fill the back with rubbish.
Have one good lot of stuff then pack all the rest out of inferior quality materials.

You have to have a team in china that checks every box, that knows how to test the material and then packs it for you.
 
tech/a said:
SP
We are talking Multi Million Dollar Developments.
Its the way things are done.
Click to expand...

Yes I realise that tech/a, I was just pointing out, that the same problems exist even in small projects.
Very few companies now supply all the trades, no matter what the size and they all take the lowest sensible quote.
The problem is, all it does is cut the margin on all the aspects of the build, which in turn encourages corner cutting.
The only time I have seen over engineering in a project, has been where it is a Government department carrying out the project, but alas those days have mostly gone.
 
moXJO said:
They screw the subbies to the point that you are doing it for wages. In turn subbies don't give a crap. Or you end up with the bottom of the barrel. Happens a lot.
Click to expand...
That is exactly what I was meaning, it is rampant and no one can pin down responsibility.
 
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