Confederate Flag Ban

[wayneL]

Maybe not much to do with us here in Oz, directly, but illustrative of the political malaise affecting all western countries with knee jerk reactions.... or perhaps targeted icon executions? The confederate flag has been portrayed as a symbol of racism.

Growing up in the states, I was taught the American civil war was about freeing the slaves. A colleague corrected my mis-education.

Let me get a few things off my chest. Less than 5% of Southerners owned slaves (4.8% according to the census) in 1860. Do you really think the other 95.2% of non slave holding individuals would be willing to fight and die for 4.8% of the population? Really? Another interesting statistic is that roughly 15% of the blacks living in the south were not slaves. (261,988 free out of a population of less than 4 million). Free blacks were statistically more likely to own slaves than free whites. For example of the 10,689 free blacks residing in New Orleans, 3,000 or 28% owned slaves. Some blacks owned a lot of slaves, a lot as in excess of 100 and 150 slaves. (These are impressive figures as it must be understood that of the 4.8% of slave owners in the south the majority owned only 1 to 5 slaves.)

The truth is that the war was waged against the south not to end slavery but to force the south to rejoin the voluntary union. The south made every effort to avoid war. The south sent representatives to offer to pay the United States for its part of the national debt and to pay compensation for US interests in the south including Fort Sumter, but Lincoln refused to meet with them. If you think Lincoln freed the slaves you are mistaken. The Emancipation Proclamation was worded carefully to state that only the slaves in the Confederate States were to be freed.

In other words the President of one country was issuing a "proclamation" that presumed an authority that he did not possess. An analogy would be if the President of Russia issued a proclamation that all people in the England could no longer drive cars. The president of one country has no authority in another. Why did Lincoln only proclaim freedom for the slaves he had no power to free but did not free the slaves that he did have power to free? The emancipation proclamation did not free slaves in Kentucky, Missouri, Delaware, or Maryland which were all slave states that never seceded from the union. The intent of Lincoln's emancipation proclamation was to weaken the south in hopes that the slaves would turn against the Southern cause of independence and rise up in assistance of the union with the implication being that they were now free because he said they were. That did not materialize, but what it did do was forever falsely frame Lincoln as an altruistic emancipator and confuse third grade public school students into thinking the war was fought to "free the slaves".

Lincoln wanted blacks to be rounded up and shipped to Liberia. If you think the war was fought to free the slaves then why was it fought for 2+ years prior to any mention of freeing the slaves?? If you want to accurately hold a grudge against a flag consider the US flag is the flag that flew over the country that permitted slavery for 200 years. Consider the Confederacy never imported a slave to these shores, the US did. You may also want to consider the fact that there were no legal slaves in the American colonies until a black man sued for the right to own another black man. (Anthony Johnson 1655).

If you want to research the less popularly discussed causes of secession you can start way back in 1824 with punitive Tariffs that plundered the south to finance northern interests. And follow the polarizing political atmosphere that continued to escalate and develop over the next 36 years.

The southern states ultimately utilized their sovereign right to secede from the voluntary union due to the same reasoning and same ideals of liberty that their forefathers had fought for less than a century prior in the revolutionary war. It is important to note that the reasons for secession and the reasons for the war are two different discussions. The question of how to end slavery in southern agrarian cash crop states was not an easy one and though the sentiment was growing that the institution of slavery would need to be dealt with the impending fear for these specific states was that an abrupt end would result in chaos, vagrancy, and a desperate population of freed slaves who had previously been entirely dependent. England, Spain, Denmark, and France had all managed to peacefully put an end to slavery and using their model of compensated emancipation slave owners in the US could have been compensated to ease the transition to freedom if the federal government or state genuinely wanted to end the institution but procrastination allowed the institution to persist. Most of the northern states had put an end to slavery only within the 20 years prior to the war. But in anticipation of southern states eventually doing the same they passed laws to prevent freed blacks from potentially flooding their borders.

Indiana's 1851 Constitution (article 13) stated "No Negro or Mulatto shall come into, or settle in, the State, after the adoption of this Constitution." The Illinois Black Code of 1853 prohibited any Black persons from outside of the state from staying in the state for more than ten days, subjecting Black persons who remain beyond the ten days to arrest, detention, a $50 fine, or deportation. It was clear as slavery's end was being discussed that northern states wanted to insure that there would be no mass migration of blacks into their states. Maryland prohibited black immigration until 1865. While Lincoln expressly stated in his inaugural address that he had no intention of interfering with the issue of slavery, there still existed a huge amount of distrust and apprehension concerning Lincoln's allegiance to Northern interests and a growing abolitionist movement. The issue of slavery was a tipping factor that contributed to the secession of some of the southern states, but contrary to popular belief this was not the deciding factor for others. In fact Arkansas, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Virginia did not secede until after witnessing Lincoln's reaction to Fort Sumter where he succeeded in provoking the south and subsequently prepared to wage war on the southern people.

In closing, the flag that you claim stands for racism represents the last and greatest effort ever made by a people to simply exist and be self governed. Hundreds of thousands died, lost loved ones, suffered severe injuries and hardships all to protect their homeland and defend the right of their state to represent the interests of it's citizens. No confederate soldier signed up to fight for slavery. The war wasn't about slavery. The war was about a tyrant who used his genius in all the wrong ways. Might doesn't make right, and the demonization of the South is the victor's way of rationalizing an indefensible wrong.

 

[Knobby22]

I agree, the American Civil War was not about slaves at all and has been sugar coated by the winning side.

Not living in the USA I wouldn't know but has the Confederate flag become the flag of choice of white supremacists? Even if it has, will banning of it do any good? I really don't get it.

 

[qldfrog]

I agree, the American Civil War was not about slaves at all and has been sugar coated by the winning side.

Not living in the USA I wouldn't know but has the Confederate flag become the flag of choice of white supremacists? Even if it has, will banning of it do any good? I really don't get it.

same here and seeing a civil war game gettysburg from memory removed from sale due to the fact it display the confederate flag (as you would expect is crazy...

 

[luutzu]

Maybe not much to do with us here in Oz, directly, but illustrative of the political malaise affecting all western countries with knee jerk reactions.... or perhaps targeted icon executions? The confederate flag has been portrayed as a symbol of racism.

Growing up in the states, I was taught the American civil war was about freeing the slaves. A colleague corrected my mis-education.

Pretty amazing the kind of propaganda that's fed through the educational system and the media. Without further (self-directed) education, it's pretty hard to know which side is up.

Was listening to Chomsky where he said slavery and racism was actually worst in America after the Civil War and continue still to this day - just in different shades.

It's never good to be a slave, but before they were "freed" at least they have owners who consider them as an asset so feed them and to some degree take care of them with proper shelter... there's even a family and some sort of freedom they could enjoy.

After the war, laws were passed that basically lock them up again. Laws like standing on a street corner "loitering" or looking at a white lady or wondering around. When locked up, they are now states asset, which put them in chain and rehired out to the previous plantation owners to do work for free.

So the costs to house and fed the former slaves now rest with the state and the plantation owners get to use for next to nothing and not worry about the asset being sick or overworked to death.

Working slaves look and sounds bad, but working convicted criminals... well criminals are bad so they deserve it.

Those freed slaves who weren't convicted have no education, no assets and so go back to work for the former masters anyway.

Then you got Segregation and when that was lifted there's the war on drugs with enforcement overwhelmingly focused on the suburbs and slumps and not the drug users and dealers on the right side of the track.

---

It might be too much but to link the GFC with intentional racism but from a lecture by Robert Scheer, he points out that the GFC destroyed half the wealth of some 50% African Americans, destroy the wealth and assets of some 75% Latino Americans.

Most of their assets are their houses, and when the bubble burst, the value was halved and many were evicted, losing everything. There is nothing to pass on to their kids, there is no wealth to live in dignity in retirement.

The gov't did not step in to help the people as that would be setting bad examples and the market is fair and have its consequences - but hundreds of billions and trillions were spent to bail out big corporations and the banks no problem.

Then of course there's the poor Southern whites who haven't had it much better from their gov't. And without help they turn to Gods and guns and against the blacks and coloured people.

But now just about everyone is blaming the flag for racial violence and social ills.

 

[Macquack]

...or perhaps targeted icon executions? The confederate flag has been portrayed as a symbol of racism.

Growing up in the states...

I am interested in if you were in Australia during the dismissal of Gough Whitlam ("icon execution") for which you now perform a cheerleader squad routine?

Are you just a blow in?

 

[Tisme]

I spent time in South Carolina and the blacks are genetically encoded to be unhappy with whitey and vice versa.

Good for us though. both camps like Aussies