Garpal Gumnut
Ross Island Hotel
- Joined
- 2 January 2006
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It has been raining solidly in N.Queensland for the last few days. Most dams are full. It dropped to 16 last night. I have to wear a jumper from about 4pm onwards.
If you want to know what the weather is like stick your head out the window.
Winter rain and low temperatures are a normal variant, as are rising tides and drought.
These jokers on the Goremobile know as much about the climate as Wayne Swan knows about economics.
gg
Now the New Scientist not known to be kind to those of reason is coming around to debunking the Gore Kool Effect.
Has global warming really stopped?
.JPGMichael Le Page, biology features editor
According to some records of past temperatures there has been no significant surface warming between 1998 and 2008.
"Now the world is COOLING!" the bloggers scream. As if this means we can all stop worrying about global warming.
I am not sure how anyone who takes even a brief look at records of past surface air temperatures for themselves can jump to such conclusions. It's blindingly obvious that even when there's a long-term warming trend, over shorter periods temperatures may fall.
There was also no significant warming trend from between 1977 and 1985, or between 1981 and 1989 - and those periods certainly weren't the end of global warming. Now, as if more evidence were needed, two climate scientists have produced more data showing that the current lull in no way contradicts the fact that human emissions of greenhouse gases are causing long-term warming.
David Easterling of the National Climatic Data Center in Asheville, North Carolina and Michael Wehner of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in Berkeley in California looked both at observed temperature records and at climate model predictions for the 20th and 21st centuries. Their paper is in press in Geophysical Research Letters. Their conclusion?
"We show that the climate over the 21st century can and likely will produce periods of a decade or two where the globally averaged surface air temperature shows no trend or even slight cooling in the presence of longer-term warming."
It'd be nice to think their contribution would make a difference. But I doubt it will change the minds of those who dismiss the idea of climate change despite the key evidence from physics and chemistry, despite the evidence from past climate changes and despite dramatic changes such as collapsing ice shelves in Antarctica, the shrinking of summer sea ice in the Arctic and the retreat of glaciers all around the world.
I suspect that claims such as "Global warming stopped in 1998" will give way to claims such as "Global warming stopped in 2017" and "Global warming stopped in 2033", even as the long-term warming trend becomes ever clearer.
Thank goodness President Obama listens to the real scientists.
About Skeptical Science
Skeptical Science was created by John Cook, an ex-physicist (majoring in solar physics at the University of Queensland). My interest in global warming began when I got into some discussions with a skeptical family member who handed me a speech by Senator Inhofe. It took little research to show his arguments were misleading and lacking in science.
Since then, I've scoured peer reviewed scientific literature in an attempt to penetrate the political agendas and cherry picking. I've noticed two patterns in global warming skepticism. Firstly, many reasons for disbelieving in anthropogenic global warming (AGW) seem to be political rather than scientific. Eg - it's all a liberal plot to spread socialism and destroy capitalism (or sometimes just plain dislike for Al Gore). As one person put it, "the cheerleaders for doing something about global warming seem to be largely the cheerleaders for many causes of which I disapprove".
Beneath the politics is a more elemental instinct - an aversion to alarmism. We've been burnt before. The media predicted an ice age in the 70's which never eventuated. Y2K was going to destroy society - it was barely a hiccup. And I won't deny there are alarmists in the global warming camp. Urgent cries that the ice sheets are on the verge of sliding into the sea. Or emotional pleas to save those cute little polar bears. Sadly, alarmists seem to be the loudest voices in the global warming debate. But that doesn't change the science underneath.
So I ignore the distracting politics and ad hominem arguments. Instead, I concentrate on the science. And I noticed when the discussion did get to science, the same flawed skeptic argument continue to propogate through the blogosphere, Chinese whispers style. This website is an attempt to examine all the scientific arguments that reject AGW.
Questions of funding
Some have queried if I receive funding to produce this website. I receive no funding and have no affiliations with any organisations or political groups. Skeptical Science is strictly a labour of love - maintained in my spare time. The design was created by my talented web designer wife. I did all the programming (which was built from scratch, not using any pre-existing CMS, I might add).
It's no secret that there's a relationship between environmentalism and economic cycles with both peaking at the same time.Everyone was so gung ho about saving our environment, melting pola bears and carbon foot prints. Dont hear much about it anymore? Been placed in the to hard basket! Wear so busy trying to save ourselves financially.
I read that piece with interest. Plimer is one of my heroes because of his consistent political campaign against the pretence that creationism is science, so his equally consistent campaign against political action to change civilisation-caused carbon emissions troubles me.
The scientists that "go along with it" are the ones involved, for the main, in specific and concentrated research that suggests man-made influences are speeding what otherwise what could be "normal" or natural processes.I've never paid much attention to global warming. Noise, coincidence, factors we don't know of or understand etc, it just seems there's too much uncertainty to take such a strong stand against it. To me it just sounds like the herd jumping on the latest bull market. I'm surprised so many scientists go along with it, but then there's no law that states scientists can't be fools, have agendas or ruled by fear.
Revealed: Antarctic ice growing, not shrinking
Australian Antarctic Division glaciology program head Ian Allison said sea ice losses in west Antarctica over the past 30 years had been more than offset by increases in the Ross Sea region, just one sector of east Antarctica.
"Sea ice conditions have remained stable in Antarctica generally," Dr Allison said.
Dr Allison on to say which is fact, the majority of ice beneath the water surface will not raise sea levels (no brainer which most haven't thought about). It is the exposed ice above the sea level in these regions. Most of the focus has been on Greenland and the Artic, But the convertor current has the warm water flowing towards greenland before it plunges down alongside Canada. The Antarctica receives the full blast of deep cold older water on the converter belt.
There is Climate Change no doubt about it. I wouldn't be surprised if after warming things get very cold very fast. Dependant on the converter belt. I wish there was more upto date information as it has a more profound effect directly on our weather.
When it's clearly "proven" that there is no case supporting climate change then the thread will come to its natural end.Prof.Plimer is the main force extant in the cause against the "Church of Climatology"
Now please READ HIS BOOK.
And can we please now end this thread.
It is a honeypot for the disastrous left, who now have only the Weather to blame for the lack of uptake of their disastrous leftie ideas.
Perhaps Joe should endow the power to have a thread ended by its originator after exhaustive left wing nitpicking Gorebore anti democratic whingeing godbothering people who don't respect the other side of the argument.
gg
Friday, May 2, 2008
The Falsifiability Question
OK, the new meme among the denialists is that the tide is with them, that their evidence is overwhelming, that we must be religious zealots not to be able to see the overwhelming evidence that, um, that "very not what the IPCC says". I think we need to talk about the balance of evidence, someday, but I'd like to address the "falsifiability question", i.e., what evidence would it take to shake me of my firm "belief" in AGW.
There is some implication that there is an "AGW theory" and that there is an argument in its support, and that said argument is a cohesive thread starting with Fourier and ending at the dreaded-extremist-boogeyman-Gore, and that failure of any chain in said argument necessarily implies "see, so no carbon policy is necessary". (I'm missing a few steps in their reasoning here, too, but that's another topic still.)
I claim there is no "AGW theory" in the sense that there is an argument that four colors suffice, or more fairly, that stars follow an evolutionary path based on their mass. AGW is not an organizing principle of climate theory at all.
Hypotheses, organizing principles, of this sort emerge from the fabric of a science as a consequence of a search for unifying principles. The organizing principles of climatology come from various threads, but I'd mention the oceanographic sysyntheses of Sverdrup and Stommel, the atmospheric syntheses of Charney and Lorenz, paleoclimatological studies from ice and mud core field work, and computational work starting with no less than Johnny von Neumann.
The expectation of AGW does not organize this work. It emerges from this work. It's not a theory, it's a consequence of the theory.
Admittedly it's a pretty important consequence, and that's why the governments of the world have tried to sort out what the science says with the IPCC and its predecessors. That tends to color which work gets done and which doesn't, and I think it should. As Andy Revkin pointed out, it may be time to move toward a service-oriented climatology, or what I have called applied climatology. The point is that this amounts to application of a theory that emerged and reached mathematical and conceptual maturity entirely independent of worry about climate change.
So attacks on climate change as if it were a "theory" make very little sense. Greenhouse gas accumulation is a fact. Radiative properties of greenhouse gases are factual. The climate is not going to stay the same. It can't stay the same. Staying the same would violate physics; specifically it would violate the law of energy conservation. Something has to change.
The simplest consequence is that the surface will warm up. That this is indeed most of what happens is validated pretty much in observations, in paleodata, in theory and in simulation. Further, all those lines of evidence converge pretty much about how much warming: about 2.5 C to 3C for each doubling of CO2. (It's logarithmic in total CO2, not in emitted CO2, guys, by the way.) There's no single line of reasoning for this. There are multiple lines of evidence.
If you want to convince me that the sensitivity is less than 2 or more than 4, you will have to provide quite a good deal of evidence, but I don;t think this is what the denialists have in mind when they ask me what would "falsify the hypothesis". In fact, though, they haven't defined their terms. If the sensititivity is less than 1, is the supposed hypothesis falsified? What if it is more than 6? If the onset time is a hundred years rather than ten?
They want to know what it would take to pry my free of my "beliefs", but they are not beliefs, they are estimates. Estimates of the sensitivity (2.8 C per doubling). Estimates of the built-in delays (about twenty years for full effect of current concentrations). Estimates of the threshold of excessively high social risk (some range here but I go with 2 C ~ 450 ppmv).
What would it take to change my opinion of the threshhold to 451 ppmv? A nice dinner at Fonda San Miguel, margaritas included, would surely do it. If that constitutes a falsification, bring it on.
Really, though, I don't understand the question. If these numbers wobble around a bit that might shift the optimum policy a bit, but we're so far from the optimum now that it's not worth putting much thought into it yet. The numbers, however, are never going away. There will always be a sensitivity, a response curve, a risk threshold. If you are asking what evidence could make me believe that there are no such numbers, I can't actually imagine it.
That's not because I have a blind attachment to some theory. It's because the numbers must exist, and we have lots of evidence as to what they might be.
What would it take to change my estimate of the numbers? That depends by how much. What would it take to convince me that the meteorology and oceanography I have learned is wrong? I don't know. What would it take to falsify any mature quantitative science?
Well GG, If you start a thread with a deliberately (I think) provocative title you can't really complain if people continue to be provoked.
Climate change is not another name for weather. An argument that pretends they are the same thing is never going to get anywhere. Neither is an argument that jumps from science to public policy and back again without being sure that all parties are talking about the same thing.
There is not and never will be clear, 100% reliable knowledge of what the weather will be at any given point on the earth on any given day under any given carbon emission scenario, but that's not what climate science is about. I think this blog posting is a pretty good summary of how scientists (including Plimer) think and why many of them believe the policy issues of climate change are acute even though there are many unanswered scientific questions. Ghoti
And can we please now end this thread.
It is a honeypot for the disastrous left, who now have only the Weather to blame for the lack of uptake of their disastrous leftie ideas.
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