China on our doorstep

Sean K said:

I'm finding it hard to see a level of equivalency with these two actions.

The Chinese ship was there to surveille Australia's coast.
The Australian P8 was there to surveille the SCS.
Australia monitored the Chinese ship off the WA coast and didn't approach it.
China J16 dropped chaff in front of the P8 potentially destroying the engines.

There's probably a level of information that we're not aware of here. Like, exactly where the P8 was and what they were watching and listening to and, what an Australian submarine may or may not have been doing shadowing the Chinese spy ship.

I think China are very lucky that the chaff didn't destroy an engine and bring it down.

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Agreed

JohnDe said:

Firstly, that is a lie "and you agree with"

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what is a lie?

I do not know how to put it any simpler,

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You don't have to put it simpler, I understand what you are saying, you are just so set on your path of talking past me you are failing to see the nuance of my point.

My point is simple, Australia has no business getting upset by a Chinese ship patrolling along our coast when we are actively patrolling in their back yard.

"we have been sending surveillance up there for ages" Yes, that is correct. The reason is to protect our trade routes, cargo, ships, passengers and crew. This has been explained numerous times and examples and reasons given.

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Yes, I am sure that is the only reason we are up there however China can use the same excuse, their trade routes to the Pilbara and other Australian ports probably need patrolling in their opinion (two can play at that game)

Australia is within its rights as mentioned in the United Nations International Law.

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As is china when they patrol down our coast, (again don't bring up the fighter jet, I have already said I don't condone that, and its a separate topic.

JohnDe said:

Agreed

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I feel the discussion is focused too much on the legalistics and missing the reality that the incident is more like two dogs flexing over ownership of a bone.

Sean K said:

I'm finding it hard to see a level of equivalency with these two actions.

The Chinese ship was there to surveille Australia's coast.
The Australian P8 was there to surveille the SCS.

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Was the Chinese ship there to surveil the coast??? or was it just protecting its trade routes as Australia claims to do to justify our surveillance activities?

Australia monitored the Chinese ship off the WA coast and didn't approach it.
China J16 dropped chaff in front of the P8 potentially destroying the engines.

There's probably a level of information that we're not aware of here. Like, exactly where the P8 was and what they were watching and listening to and, what an Australian submarine may or may not have been doing shadowing the Chinese spy ship.

I think China are very lucky that the chaff didn't destroy an engine and bring it down.

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I am not condoning that action, all I have said is that it is not unusual, and similar tactics have been used for years between various nations.

The USA (who we are seemingly in bed with in chinas eyes) has been running ships, planes and submarines by china for years spying, as they get more powerful and see themselves on the same footing as the USA we can expect a lot of push back.

As I said before its perfectly legal to stand out the front of my house filming and recording with sound equipment, there is nothing I can legally do to stop you, but if you did it long enough I might begin throwing eggs or some water bombs, now that would be totally illegal for me to do that and you could cry assault. However we all know that you might kinda deserve it, and if you cry to the police about how you could of lost an eye or slipped over due to the egg and water bombs, well thats just you trying to play victim because things aren't going your way and you should probably take the hint I am growing frustrated with your "surveillance"

3 hound said:

I feel the discussion is focused too much on the legalistics and missing the reality that the incident is more like two dogs flexing over ownership of a bone.

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The Australia I grew up with and support is one of equality, world order, and supporting the tules for those ambitions. Australia is not like the UK, l it’s not like the USA and it’s not like Europe, but it is a bit of everyone. We believe in balance ane sharing.

Australia is not standing up against China’s bullying tactics because of some dog power mentality, but instead because if we don’t do it now in 10 or 20 years it will be too late.

JohnDe said:

The Australia I grew up with and support is one of equality, world order, and supporting the tules for those ambitions. Australia is not like the UK, l it’s not like the USA and it’s not like Europe, but it is a bit of everyone. We believe in balance ane sharing.

Australia is not standing up against China’s bullying tactics because of some dog power mentality, but instead because if we don’t do it now in 10 or 20 years it will be too late.

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I agree with what your saying but it's not necessarily about Australia. China is asserting itself as the big dog on the block. We have ready handed them a lot of power over us thru economic means. Your 10, 20 years timeline has already came and gone already imo. The time, money and lives we wasted in the middle east should have been spent in the Pacific.

Value Collector said:

Was the Chinese ship there to surveil the coast??? or was it just protecting its trade routes as Australia claims to do to justify our surveillance activities?

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The coast. Google - Harold E Holt Naval Communications Base.

JohnDe said:

Australia is not standing up against China’s bullying tactics because of some dog power mentality, but instead because if we don’t do it now in 10 or 20 years it will be too late.

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China has not threatened any other country in the last century but now wants Australia.
You are not good with analysis!

rederob said:

China has not threatened any other country in the last century but now wants Australia.
You are not good with analysis!

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Please stop following me, I don’t want to hear any of your nonsense. Your abusive posts towards me, and ridiculously wrong call on EVs is all I can stomach from you.

Edit: All fixed, used the ignore function.

rederob said:

China has not threatened any other country in the last century but now wants Australia.
You are not good with analysis!

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Vietnam war?

Suicide waves in Korea.

Beating the living **** out of Buddhist monks in tibet and the Tibetan people?

Chinese people killing the **** out of the Chinese people in the people's revolution?

Taiwan, Hong Kong... what about the Vietnamese and Philipino fishing boats rammed and water cannoned

Sean K said:

The coast. Google - Harold E Holt Naval Communications Base.

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I am sure there is plenty of sensitive sites in the South China Sea too, but no maybe our ships and planes are just counting sea gulls and tracking turtles ?

JohnDe said:

Please stop following me, I don’t want to hear any of your nonsense. Your abusive posts towards me, and ridiculously wrong call on EVs is all I can stomach from you.

Edit: All fixed, used the ignore function.

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Next time you put me on Ignore don't contradict yourself with a reply to me that I cannot see due to your choice.
I do not follow you as you think as I don't find your commentary analytical, and that's exactly why I posted here after reading your contributions, which are largely one sided and reflect a poor understanding of China and its actions.

If anyone knew about the Chinese fighter's automated defensive mechanisms they would know that the Australian "spy" plane could have triggered the chaffing incident. Google can explain how this works. As @Value Collector notes, these types of incidents have been going on for a very long time and are not one sided. Just remember that the Defence Department never does well under Labor, and it's in their best interest to get in early with a China kicking incident so their military expenditure can be maintained at the very least. Just look at the date of the jet fighter incident, the location and timing of Australia's overseas visits, and the announcement of the fighter incident, and work out if it's just a coincidence.

Whenever we read about China in our media there are often key words and phrases used, including aggression, debt trap diplomacy, and trade war. Equally less subtle are the containment actions of Australia via FIORC, aka five eyes; QSD, aka the Quad; AUKUS; and ANZUS, which are in addition to the lesser known Lombok Treaty, Five Power Defence Arrangements and Japan-Australia Joint Declaration on Security Cooperation. On the other hand China is non-aligned, although clearly has affinity with counties also tarnished with the label of communism.

China is not on our doorstop and has no compelling reason to be. That is not prevent the yellow peril brigade fomenting this false notion out of hype and distortion. Who exactly wins from such actions? That's the picture that needs to be explored rather than a regurgitation of poorly explained circumstances laden with jingoism.

A week ago I did an in-depth analysis of Antony Blinken's recent China Policy speech but didn't post it because it was too long and the ASFers that should probably read it have me on ignore anyway. In summary it contained two glaring contradictions.

Blinken's first contradiction is that he states that America is not indulging in a cold war. I know Blinken is not stupid, but he wants listeners to be, because every action America is undertaking seeks to ring fence China while systematically "gathering" nations in security pacts and allegiances that are supposed to foster Indo-Pacific cooperation yet explicitly exclude China! The second contradictions relates to economic exclusions and could not be more bald faced than with the establishment of IPEF last month which also excludes China. How exactly IPEF "will create a stronger, fairer, more resilient economy for families, workers, and businesses in the United States and in the Indo-Pacific region" remains to be seen as it specifically fosters a clear divide between the worlds largest manufacturing economy and the rest of the Asia Pacific region which rely on its cheap products.

3 hound said:

Vietnam war

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Khmer Rouge leadership in Kunming during the '60s

Sino-Vietnamese border war in early 1979.

3 hound said:

I feel the discussion is focused too much on the legalistics and missing the reality that the incident is more like two dogs flexing over ownership of a bone.

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Or a frog Time to Slow Cook China’s South China Sea Frog?


The South China Sea in Strategic Terms

"If China succeeds, in displacing U.S. power in the Western Pacific and Chinese territorial expansion into the South China Sea becomes permanent and codified, global geopolitics will have entered a new and very different era. Southeast Asia will inevitably be rendered subordinate and compliant to China’s will. Australia will be isolated with an uncertain future. Japan and South Korea will face a perilous new reality with China in control of the seaborne lifeline of both countries. The credibility of U.S. security support for allies and partners will be shredded. India will lose its current freedom of access into the South China Sea and much of Southeast Asia. European access to Asia will be through Beijing. All this will occur in a region that is increasingly the vibrant center of the world economy. The message will be clear; the era of American international leadership and predominance is over and a new preeminent power has taken its place."

JohnDe said:

Or a frog Time to Slow Cook China’s South China Sea Frog?

"The contest over the South China Sea involves more than besting the Chinese Communist Party. It is a competition over whose maritime order will prevail—a contest that has major economic and security implications for all nations of the region as well as the United States."​

The South China Sea in Strategic Terms

"If China succeeds, in displacing U.S. power in the Western Pacific and Chinese territorial expansion into the South China Sea becomes permanent and codified, global geopolitics will have entered a new and very different era. Southeast Asia will inevitably be rendered subordinate and compliant to China’s will. Australia will be isolated with an uncertain future. Japan and South Korea will face a perilous new reality with China in control of the seaborne lifeline of both countries. The credibility of U.S. security support for allies and partners will be shredded. India will lose its current freedom of access into the South China Sea and much of Southeast Asia. European access to Asia will be through Beijing. All this will occur in a region that is increasingly the vibrant center of the world economy. The message will be clear; the era of American international leadership and predominance is over and a new preeminent power has taken its place."

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It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out with maritime access once/if China do control the SCS. It might mean that the SCS is bypassed, or deals are struck to allow China through the Malacca Strait and between the Andaman and Nicobar Islands for passage through the SCS. India could quite easily shut down that path from west to east in the future, isolating China. Hence one of the reasons why India are so important to the Quad.

Sean K said:

It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out with maritime access once/if China do control the SCS. It might mean that the SCS is bypassed, or deals are struck to allow China through the Malacca Strait and between the Andaman and Nicobar Islands for passage through the SCS. India could quite easily shut down that path from west to east in the future, isolating China. Hence one of the reasons why India are so important to the Quad.

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The Lombok Strait would have to take more of our shipping, and Indonesia will be an important ally.

Anthony Albanese vows to strengthen Australia’s ties on official Indonesia visit