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This is not necessarily a function of distributed, small generators - a large power station does exactly the same thing in that it adds base / intermediate / peak generation to the grid.On the flip side there is a benefit in that the more individual generators(of any kind) in the grid alleviates base(and especially peak) load meaning less demand on infrastructure(supply chain) causing less blackouts, and when blackouts do occur less area would be affected.
cheers
This is not necessarily a function of distributed, small generators - a large power station does exactly the same thing in that it adds base / intermediate / peak generation to the grid.
That means that at times the fuel cell needs to be running flat out when nobody is home in order to meet the total load on the grid.
To be specific, the real danger if these became common is that people might not have them running during Summer afternoons since they don't need the heat or hot water produced. That WILL bring down the entire grid unless the grid and conventional power stations continue to be built and expanded as though distributed generation did not exist, a situation which makes the fuel cells uneconomic at best.
I was referring to the transmission lines. If there are many individual units in the grid the load over the lines are less then if they are not in the circuit. This means the transmission lines can accommodate a higher number of houses/etc without the need to be upgraded.This is not necessarily a function of distributed, small generators - a large power station does exactly the same thing in that it adds base / intermediate / peak generation to the grid.
Just to expand on what Frank has mentioned, the BlueGen units have an Ethernet port for communication between the unit and a central control. Not sure if this is for over the internet, but it may be intended for some kind of closed network.One potential major problem with fuel cells or any other distributed generation relates to its load profile given that they are not subject to centralised control.
Just to expand on what Frank has mentioned, the BlueGen units have an Ethernet port for communication between the unit and a central control. Not sure if this is for over the internet, but it may be intended for some kind of closed network.
I read somewhere that CFCL did this to allow the units to be controlled by a central system by the electricity supplier
My thoughts exactly. As a direct to customer product, it would be up to the customer to decide what output capacity it runs, and if it were mine I'd run it at it's highest output/efficiency to earn it's highest return.I wonder who controls all the solar panels all ready up and running?
or dont they need controlling because they dont contribute much?
Surely a reliable constant supply doesnt need much controlling at all?
Problem is, as I understand it, the current 'base load' generators are slow to adjust, meaning there are blackouts during the lag time. CFCL's option would make these type of blackouts a thing of the past...........at least that's what I took from their literature. Though I'm not sure how much of an issue this really is, as we tend to only have blackouts when a car takes out a pole on the nearby main road.Its for the 'base load' generators to adjust themselves to what extra might be needed.
Interesting article...but what do you make of this quote?
"Another weak point of the system is that it does not work without ordinary electricity, meaning that it cannot be used as an emergency power source in case of a power outage."
What is ordinary electricity? .That which is generated in the conventional way ,using coal fired power? ..and why doesn't it work with conventional?
Interesting article...but what do you make of this quote?
"Another weak point of the system is that it does not work without ordinary electricity, meaning that it cannot be used as an emergency power source in case of a power outage."
What is ordinary electricity? .That which is generated in the conventional way ,using coal fired power? ..and why doesn't it work with conventional?
Yes, the truth is CFCLs system doesnt work without the grid, or if there is power supply failure from the grid.
exactly why i dont know.
Thanks for the technicals on this ,Knobby22.I don't have a background in this,so will ask another rube question...or rather suggest something.
So ,granted ,the unit won't distribute when the grid is down ,but,surely it can be isolated so that it can still be used in the house.A simple switch ,either manual or automatic could be set up.
It gives the owner "power autonomy" ..Independence from the grid,in times of outage.Yes? No?
In regards to power feeding back to grid when grid down have been advised by electricity(Aurora) here in Tas that if system is down your house has to be down. Problem from there view is you could feed power back in and zap a worker. They also advise that it is illegal to have a switching unit in place to use power yourself when grid is down and there are large fines if caught.
Was trying to use a micro hydro system and had to do research.
In regards to power feeding back to grid when grid down have been advised by electricity(Aurora) here in Tas that if system is down your house has to be down. Problem from there view is you could feed power back in and zap a worker. They also advise that it is illegal to have a switching unit in place to use power yourself when grid is down and there are large fines if caught.
Was trying to use a micro hydro system and had to do research.
Small grid-connected generation (solar PV, fuel cells etc) in the way it is typically applied is not capable of independently maintaining frequency and voltage in an islanded grid. But yes, they can and do feed power back into the grid and this will reduce your power bills.Can anyone tell me if this applies to Solar power?
Have a friend in Townsville who tells me his excess goes back into the grid and reverses his meter.
Am interested in any opinions as I'm a dumb bu*@ger when it comes to sparks.
Thanks for that run down Smirf, I feel better informed now.Small grid-connected generation (solar PV, fuel cells etc) in the way it is typically applied is not capable of independently maintaining frequency and voltage in an islanded grid. But yes, they can and do feed power back into the grid and this will reduce your power bills.
In layman's terms, that means it generates power but is "tied" to the grid and conventional power stations - your solar or fuel cell doesn't itself maintain a stable 240V 50Hz supply but rather, the grid forces it to do nothing else. In other words, your 1 kW solar panels can't fight and win against multiple large power stations, many of them over 1 million kW each, and will thus maintain frequency as per the grid.
That doesn't affect it producing power, yes grid connected solar installations do work and do feed power into the grid, but it does mean we can't run the entire grid this way. We still need conventional centrally dispatched generation (that is, large power stations) as well as other sources to make the whole thing work.
Much the same scenario applies to large scale (power company) wind generation and this is one of the things that limits its use. Also it applies to DC transmission links as well.
To illustrate the point, the situation at off-peak times in Tasmania is a good one. Under extreme minimum load conditions (middle of the night in Summer), up to 50% of total load could in theory be supplied from Victoria via Basslink (the Vic - Tas DC power cable) with another 15% from local wind generation if it's windy enough.
Now the problem is this. The wind generation and the DC link are both inherently unstable, they work satisfactorily only because conventional (mostly hydro in Tasmania's case) power stations maintain control of system frequency. And it goes without saying that having 65% of the load supplied from sources that depend on the remaining 35% to work is pushing the limits technically - it only works because of a rather complicated system which automatically sheds industrial loads in the event of a system disturbance.
Incidents and industrial load trips are fairly common, it's just that the major industries take it for granted (that is why they get cheap power - the product they are getting is very different to what you're paying far more for at home, hence it should be and is cheaper) and the public never hears about it.
But even with that system in place, flow across Basslink is very often constrained by system stability limits rather than the capacity of Basslink itself or the underlying desirability at the time of transferring power across it. And we still end up with multiple hydro plants operating at very low output (under 10% of capacity, sometimes way below that) ready to take up load in the event that something happens with Basslink / wind.
In the case of your home, it's not impossible to install an isolating and change-over switch to run the house from some source other than the grid. That can be done perfectly legally. However, you'll need a PV (solar) inverter that is set up to handle such operation for it to work, and you will find it very problematic for a single small system given the constant wide variation in solar output and also the variations in your consumption unless you've got a big inverter and some batteries to balance the load.
With a fuel cell it could in theory work better, except for the reality that they are baseload units not intended for load following. That is, it would work to keep your aquarium, clocks and other constant loads running nicely but the sudden load change when you turn the kettle on is a major problem.
In short, yes all these fuel cells, solar etc can work (I've got panels on my roof) but only up to a point. We still need the grid and conventional power stations under centralised control in order to keep the system balanced. If we're going to use renewables for that, then hydro or pumped storage is really the only option available that's reasonably cheap, doesn't involve a huge amount of toxic materials and which actually works.
Realistically, if you want back-up power at home then in most situations a diesel, petrol or gas (internal combustion engine, not fuel cell) generator or alternatively an inverter of some type with a large battery is the way to go for most people. Sure, put PV (solar) or a fuel cell in if you want to cut your bills and do something for the environment, but it's not the best way to protect yourself from blackouts under most circumstances.
What's worthwhile as blackout protection depends on how much you want to spend and what you want to use it for. If you're in the bush and just want to keep the fridge and a couple of lights going during an extended blackout then a petrol generator and an extension lead will be your cheapest and easieset option. But if you're sitting in front of the computer day trading then a UPS is sensible and you might want a permanently installed generator as well if you stand to lose enough $ due to a power failure to make such insurance measures worthwhile.
Don't forget however that grid power is about 99.95% reliable for the average consumer (yes I know it's nowhere near as good in some areas). So unless you really do need something better, for most people it wouldn't be worth spending the money on back-up. How much are you really prepared to pay for 4 hours a year?
I'm a licensed electrician and if you look closely at my avatar (as of now, will probably change it someday) you'll see it's a power station control room...
Small grid-connected generation (solar PV, fuel cells etc) in the way it is typically applied is not capable of independently maintaining frequency and voltage in an islanded grid. But yes, they can and do feed power back into the grid and this will reduce your power bills.
In layman's terms, that means it generates power but is "tied" to the grid and conventional power stations - your solar or fuel cell doesn't itself maintain a stable 240V 50Hz supply but rather, the grid forces it to do nothing else. In other words, your 1 kW solar panels can't fight and win against multiple large power stations, many of them over 1 million kW each, and will thus maintain frequency as per the grid.
That doesn't affect it producing power, yes grid connected solar installations do work and do feed power into the grid, but it does mean we can't run the entire grid this way. We still need conventional centrally dispatched generation (that is, large power stations) as well as other sources to make the whole thing work.
Much the same scenario applies to large scale (power company) wind generation and this is one of the things that limits its use. Also it applies to DC transmission links as well.
To illustrate the point, the situation at off-peak times in Tasmania is a good one. Under extreme minimum load conditions (middle of the night in Summer), up to 50% of total load could in theory be supplied from Victoria via Basslink (the Vic - Tas DC power cable) with another 15% from local wind generation if it's windy enough.
Now the problem is this. The wind generation and the DC link are both inherently unstable, they work satisfactorily only because conventional (mostly hydro in Tasmania's case) power stations maintain control of system frequency. And it goes without saying that having 65% of the load supplied from sources that depend on the remaining 35% to work is pushing the limits technically - it only works because of a rather complicated system which automatically sheds industrial loads in the event of a system disturbance.
Incidents and industrial load trips are fairly common, it's just that the major industries take it for granted (that is why they get cheap power - the product they are getting is very different to what you're paying far more for at home, hence it should be and is cheaper) and the public never hears about it.
But even with that system in place, flow across Basslink is very often constrained by system stability limits rather than the capacity of Basslink itself or the underlying desirability at the time of transferring power across it. And we still end up with multiple hydro plants operating at very low output (under 10% of capacity, sometimes way below that) ready to take up load in the event that something happens with Basslink / wind.
In the case of your home, it's not impossible to install an isolating and change-over switch to run the house from some source other than the grid. That can be done perfectly legally. However, you'll need a PV (solar) inverter that is set up to handle such operation for it to work, and you will find it very problematic for a single small system given the constant wide variation in solar output and also the variations in your consumption unless you've got a big inverter and some batteries to balance the load.
With a fuel cell it could in theory work better, except for the reality that they are baseload units not intended for load following. That is, it would work to keep your aquarium, clocks and other constant loads running nicely but the sudden load change when you turn the kettle on is a major problem.
In short, yes all these fuel cells, solar etc can work (I've got panels on my roof) but only up to a point. We still need the grid and conventional power stations under centralised control in order to keep the system balanced. If we're going to use renewables for that, then hydro or pumped storage is really the only option available that's reasonably cheap, doesn't involve a huge amount of toxic materials and which actually works.
Realistically, if you want back-up power at home then in most situations a diesel, petrol or gas (internal combustion engine, not fuel cell) generator or alternatively an inverter of some type with a large battery is the way to go for most people. Sure, put PV (solar) or a fuel cell in if you want to cut your bills and do something for the environment, but it's not the best way to protect yourself from blackouts under most circumstances.
What's worthwhile as blackout protection depends on how much you want to spend and what you want to use it for. If you're in the bush and just want to keep the fridge and a couple of lights going during an extended blackout then a petrol generator and an extension lead will be your cheapest and easieset option. But if you're sitting in front of the computer day trading then a UPS is sensible and you might want a permanently installed generator as well if you stand to lose enough $ due to a power failure to make such insurance measures worthwhile.
Don't forget however that grid power is about 99.95% reliable for the average consumer (yes I know it's nowhere near as good in some areas). So unless you really do need something better, for most people it wouldn't be worth spending the money on back-up. How much are you really prepared to pay for 4 hours a year?
I'm a licensed electrician and if you look closely at my avatar (as of now, will probably change it someday) you'll see it's a power station control room...
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