Automated trading or point and click?

[timeless]

Hi,
I am thinking of starting ASX share trading and I am not quite clear about the ability of trading using an automatic system of your choice.
It seems quite clear in forex where many brokers allow various software platforms as well as API so the traders can fully automate the process.
All I see for ASX brokers in Australia is that each one has their own software or most likely web based tools.
Am I not seeing something I should?
On the other hand, one may think of intercepting any web based interface with some smart software and pretend to be a mouse and eye and a keyboard. Is that what people do to automate trading, or we just have to sit in front of the screen all day and click.
For example what are the trading tools other than ones indicated by brokers I could use with Comsec, Westpac or E-Trade. I cannot find this kind of information on those sites.

May be it is burried somewhere at the bottom of the propaganda.

I know what you are saying about the risk of letting amateur software to manage money you are short of
Any comments would be highly appreciated.

Cheers

 

[FlyingFox]

Hi,
I am thinking of starting ASX share trading and I am not quite clear about the ability of trading using an automatic system of your choice.
It seems quite clear in forex where many brokers allow various software platforms as well as API so the traders can fully automate the process.
All I see for ASX brokers in Australia is that each one has their own software or most likely web based tools.
Am I not seeing something I should?
On the other hand, one may think of intercepting any web based interface with some smart software and pretend to be a mouse and eye and a keyboard. Is that what people do to automate trading, or we just have to sit in front of the screen all day and click.
For example what are the trading tools other than ones indicated by brokers I could use with Comsec, Westpac or E-Trade. I cannot find this kind of information on those sites.

May be it is burried somewhere at the bottom of the propaganda.

I know what you are saying about the risk of letting amateur software to manage money you are short of
Any comments would be highly appreciated.

Cheers

I might be wrong but you may not find many people doing any automatic or semi-automatic trading here.

As to the question of API, I did come across some API used by brokers and exchanges but in the US so I am pretty sure they exist. However it is not expected that retail investors will use an automated system so it may not be easily available or cheap.

 

[timeless]

I might be wrong but you may not find many people doing any automatic or semi-automatic trading here.

As to the question of API, I did come across some API used by brokers and exchanges but in the US so I am pretty sure they exist. However it is not expected that retail investors will use an automated system so it may not be easily available or cheap.

Thank you very much for your reply. This is what I was suspecting looking at Australian sites. I wonder why this has to be different to Forex?
Cheers

 

[FlyingFox]

Thank you very much for your reply. This is what I was suspecting looking at Australian sites. I wonder why this has to be different to Forex?
Cheers

Not an expert on this but forex trading tends to be much more dynamic, liquid and volatile. Also don;t expect large changes (> 5% per day) and really don't have long term trends. Therefore easy to automate and needs to be.

Not the case with equity. Plus , this is only opinion, you will get many more retail investors in equity than in forex.

Anyways atleast Interative brokers have an API, google it.

P.S would be interested in what you had in mind.

 

[Trembling Hand]

All I see for ASX brokers in Australia is that each one has their own software or most likely web based tools.
Am I not seeing something I should?

You need to look at Interactive Brokers API interface. Extremely powerful. From simple Excel API to Ninja trader or Amibroker interface or even a full FIX engine (150 traders per second!)

I might be wrong but you may not find many people doing any automatic or semi-automatic trading here.

Yep you're wrong. There is a few here doing Automatic trading outside the FX market.

 

[tech/a]

You need to look at Interactive Brokers API interface. Extremely powerful. From simple Excel API to Ninja trader or Amibroker interface or even a full FIX engine (150 traders per second!)



Yep you're wrong. There is a few here doing Automatic trading outside the FX market.

Really?
There are people trading automated algo's here?
I'd have thought they would be more vocal on the topic.
I think Andy Gibbs trades and makes them up professionally.
No he's not here.

 

[timeless]

Thank you all of you guys for immediate valuable response.
So in summary summary:

1) Interactive Brokers provides multiple IPIs (using DDE or ActiveX), C++, Posix C++, Java, and Visual Basic
2)E-Trade, Comsec, Westpac do not seem to have one
3)No info about any other brokers in Oz to offer API
4)IB API appears quite good
5)I am tempted to set up an account with them
6)there are some guys in this forum doing automated trading with ASX stock

Unknowns:

1)Cannot find clear pricing on IB site for Australia general water shedding on low cost only
2)Not sure if API comes at an extra cost
3)They do not have contact email to ask, only a phone
4)Their website runs like a dog on my computer even there is no trading

So my next question is IB a good provider in Australia?
But this is probably for a different thread.

Thanks

 

[FlyingFox]

You need to look at Interactive Brokers API interface. Extremely powerful. From simple Excel API to Ninja trader or Amibroker interface or even a full FIX engine (150 traders per second!)



Yep you're wrong. There is a few here doing Automatic trading outside the FX market.

Apologies. In my defense I did say many and not any

 

[FlyingFox]

Thank you all of you guys for immediate valuable response.
So in summary summary:

1) Interactive Brokers provides multiple IPIs (using DDE or ActiveX), C++, Posix C++, Java, and Visual Basic
2)E-Trade, Comsec, Westpac do not seem to have one
3)No info about any other brokers in Oz to offer API
4)IB API appears quite good
5)I am tempted to set up an account with them
6)there are some guys in this forum doing automated trading with ASX stock

Unknowns:

1)Cannot find clear pricing on IB site for Australia general water shedding on low cost only
2)Not sure if API comes at an extra cost
3)They do not have contact email to ask, only a phone
4)Their website runs like a dog on my computer even there is no trading

So my next question is IB a good provider in Australia?
But this is probably for a different thread.

Thanks

There is a python API as well.

I hope the smiley face next to Visual Basic didn't mean your planning on using it

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Thank you all of you guys for immediate valuable response.
So in summary summary:

3)No info about any other brokers in Oz to offer API

6)there are some guys in this forum doing automated trading with ASX stock

3) Yes, there's Spark Iguana and also Paritech offering APIs for automated trading on the ASX. Both costly, especially Spark's.
6) Not sure about that. I'd doubt anyone other than institutions are using it for the ASX at the moment. Maybe some of the guys at Spark are into it. Auto-trading on markets other than ASX is far easier, because people are already doing it.

One day, someone will come out with something like this, but for Aus stocks. Amazing technology. http://www.trade-ideas.com/

 

[FlyingFox]

3)
One day, someone will come out with something like this, but for Aus stocks. Amazing technology. http://www.trade-ideas.com/

Nothing stopping them from doing that themselves here. Can't speak for these guys but it is generally not as amazing as it seems. Doesn't mean it can't/won't make you money.

The really amazing stuff never gets sold to the public

 

[timeless]

There is a python API as well.

I hope the smiley face next to Visual Basic didn't mean your planning on using it

Not VB in particular, It was positioned at the end of the lot. I don't mind VB when it comes to quick and dirty prototyping right from Excel worksheet. As long as there is any API there is a chance to automate some operations, in particular detecting events of interest. I will try to explore the info provided in responses and see where we are at.

Where is that Python API available? Have not seen it mentioned on IB.


I am really happy with the feedback and attitude of you guys.

 

[Trembling Hand]

Actually I think I may have confused the situation. My response was to Auto trading outside of FX. Which the answer is yes there are a few here doing it. And yes there is an Aussie broker you can use to do it.

A more detailed response about doing it on the ASX would be yes you can do it relatively easily and cheaply (IB broker and plenty of cheap goodish software to bolt on) but you would be wasting your time.


If you want to go down the path of a short term auto trading system the idea of doing it with ASX stocks is just madeness, IMO. Use the Index futs market and lose a huge amount of complexity, gain constancy, depth, small tick sizes, super cheap brokerage and an R:R setup thats probably close to a factor of 10 times in your favour.


I simply have no idea why anyone trades the ASX.........

 

[white_goodman]

I simply have no idea why anyone trades the ASX.........

because of the lack of margin credits I get with stocks...

 

[FlyingFox]

Not VB in particular, It was positioned at the end of the lot. I don't mind VB when it comes to quick and dirty prototyping right from Excel worksheet. As long as there is any API there is a chance to automate some operations, in particular detecting events of interest. I will try to explore the info provided in responses and see where we are at.

Where is that Python API available? Have not seen it mentioned on IB.


I am really happy with the feedback and attitude of you guys.

Sorry about the VB jibe. In another life I trained to be a software engineer and some of those prejudices will forever remain lol. You should use whatever your comfortable with and gets the job done.

The Python API is a third party open source product. Don't know how good it is or how well maintained it is.

Also for testing purposes you can get free data from yahoo finance etc. I think they do have ticker data.

 

[CanOz]

.

Also for testing purposes you can get free data from yahoo finance etc.

Yahoos data may be fine to test an API, or other functional aspects of a trading system but for backtesting i would not use it. Use a clean data provider such as Premium Data.

CanOz

 

[FlyingFox]

Yahoos data may be fine to test an API, or other functional aspects of a trading system but for backtesting i would not use it. Use a clean data provider such as Premium Data.

CanOz

I am interested to know why this is the case?

 

[timeless]

) but you would be wasting your time.

If you want to go down the path of a short term auto trading system the idea of doing it with ASX stocks is just madeness, IMO. Use the Index futs market and lose a huge amount of complexity, gain constancy, depth, small tick sizes, super cheap brokerage and an R:R setup thats probably close to a factor of 10 times in your favour.

I simply have no idea why anyone trades the ASX.........

Since I am a beginner in trading I do not quite get what exactly you need to do, and what are the risks and technicalities, however I appreciate your point of view. I may need to start with something simple first.
Statements like "lose a huge amount of complexity, gain constancy, depth, small tick sizes, super cheap brokerage" look incredibly attractive. Losing time is not in my menu (note my screen name) and I have to focus on that what you have just said.
Could you please point me in the right direction by throwing a few links?
Thanks

 

[CanOz]

I am interested to know why this is the case?

Its not considered quality data...here is an explanation from Richard Dale. Its biased but its still true. Richard owns Premium Data and they are en excellent data provider in my view. I've been a client for almost 8 years.

It's not just the accuracy of the price data that is the issue.

Good ASX data should have all official ASX dilution factors and corporate actions applied to the database automatically. Dilution factors arise due to various corporate events (stock splits, consolidations, rights issues, demergers, mergers, capital returns etc).

In addition, the data also needs to be fully adjusted for delisting, name changes, code changes, merging of deferred settelment periods etc.

There are around 300 dilutions per year and around 150 code changes per year on the ASX. Given there are around 2100 equities traded on the ASX it's crucial that these corporate actions are applied diligently as you'll rapidly have an inaccurate view of the market.

If your data vendor doesn't do all of the above for you, caveat emptor. Your database will have a lot of useless data. Yahoo does not do all of the above.

Some recent examples corporate actions where Yahoo is defective:

DWY changed code to NYO
Yahoo shows DWY.AX and NYO.AX both as valid codes. Therefore this item is now duplicated in your database.

QOL changed code to QOLDA (due to 10:1 consolidation) then changed code to PMQ. Yahoo's PMQ.AX is missing the trades when it was trading as QOLDA (eg. on 15/16/17 Sept are showing as zero volume yet there were trades on that day)

AWB had a renounceable issue of shares at $1 (exdate 25 September 2009). There is no adjustment for this on Yahoo yet this is a significant dilutionary event.

Trojan equity had a capital return of $0.33 per share (they were trading at $0.75). Yahoo has not made any adjustment for this significant event yet your cost base would have been reduced by 33c.

Telstra history in Yahoo only goes back to 2003. It should show the time when it was TLSCA and TLSCB too (i.e. all the way back to 1998) - Yahoo is missing a significant part of the data!

You need to make your own informed decision as to whether such deficiencies in maintenance, accuracy, corporate actions and dilutions will affect your analysis.

Cheers,


CanOz

 

[CanOz]

Since I am a beginner in trading I do not quite get what exactly you need to do, and what are the risks and technicalities, however I appreciate your point of view. I may need to start with something simple first.
Statements like "lose a huge amount of complexity, gain constancy, depth, small tick sizes, super cheap brokerage" look incredibly attractive. Losing time is not in my menu (note my screen name) and I have to focus on that what you have just said.
Could you please point me in the right direction by throwing a few links?
Thanks

Algoritms to trade the local futures markets can be written on NinjaTrader, Amibroker, Multicharts and probably a few more. Amibroker is probably the best for beginners, and is one of the fastest backtesting.

All of these interface well with Interactive Brokers.

Its all pretty easy. If you have an IT background then you could have a system up and running in a few months i would think...at least walking forward.

OR you can always lease a system...

Capstone Trading Systems

Joe Krutsinger

Cheers,


CanOz