Afghanistan

[Sean K]

Obviously different battles conducted on different grounds and justification, and against a different enemy, but I'm anticipating this to be one very long drawn out affair to keep us engaged for many years with the end result being failure.

Over the next year or so I envisage Australia raising its committment to a Brigade size force including conventional infantry, mechanised elements and maybe even the deployment of jets and helicopters including the new ARH - if they can get them off the ground, all supported by a huge logistic element including a hospital. I reckon somewhere between 3000-5000 troops. It will be a composite brigade including a NZ Bn minus/Coy plus, and possibly a chunk of either US, Canadian or Brit forces.

We will be stuck there for possibly 10 years plus.

I doubt the battle against the Taliban can be won due to the terrain and their method of fighting. And, coming into a great depression where the poor muslims of the world are going to get poorer, it will be a fertile breeding ground for youths to be radicalised and turn to fight the evil Christains.

And, it's going to get more bloody. I heard somewhere that we were embedding a number of soldiers into the Afghan Army units to provide them support. These guys are fighting on the 'front line' in much more dangerous territory.

I'm not sure if Australia is prepared...

Not sure what there is to discuss on this topic. Just putting it out there as a general comment, or if anyone else thinks this is winnable, or worthwhile venture, or is there another way we can win this war?

Is diplomacy possible?

 

[Aussiejeff]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

Obviously different battles conducted on different grounds and justification, and against a different enemy, but I'm anticipating this to be one very long drawn out affair to keep us engaged for many years with the end result being failure.

Over the next year or so I envisage Australia raising its committment to a Brigade size force including conventional infantry, mechanised elements and maybe even the deployment of jets and helicopters including the new ARH - if they can get them off the ground, all supported by a huge logistic element including a hospital. I reckon somewhere between 3000-5000 troops. It will be a composite brigade including a NZ Bn minus/Coy plus, and possibly a chunk of either US, Canadian or Brit forces.

We will be stuck there for possibly 10 years plus.

I doubt the battle against the Taliban can be won due to the terrain and their method of fighting. And, coming into a great depression where the poor muslims of the world are going to get poorer, it will be a fertile breeding ground for youths to be radicalised and turn to fight the evil Christains.

And, it's going to get more bloody. I heard somewhere that we were embedding a number of soldiers into the Afghan Army units to provide them support. These guys are fighting on the 'front line' in much more dangerous territory.

I'm not sure if Australia is prepared...

Not sure what there is to discuss on this topic. Just putting it out there as a general comment, or if anyone else thinks this is winnable, or worthwhile venture, or is there another way we can win this war?

Is diplomacy possible?

Agree pretty much with everything you have said, Kennas. Muslim hardliners world-wide are going to regard the unfolding collapse of the current Capitalist World Finance System as proof positive that THEIR philosophy is the right one.

Talk about a turbulent decade ahead.....

 

[IFocus]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

Obviously different battles conducted on different grounds and justification, and against a different enemy, but I'm anticipating this to be one very long drawn out affair to keep us engaged for many years with the end result being failure.

Over the next year or so I envisage Australia raising its committment to a Brigade size force including conventional infantry, mechanised elements and maybe even the deployment of jets and helicopters including the new ARH - if they can get them off the ground, all supported by a huge logistic element including a hospital. I reckon somewhere between 3000-5000 troops. It will be a composite brigade including a NZ Bn minus/Coy plus, and possibly a chunk of either US, Canadian or Brit forces.

We will be stuck there for possibly 10 years plus.

I doubt the battle against the Taliban can be won due to the terrain and their method of fighting. And, coming into a great depression where the poor muslims of the world are going to get poorer, it will be a fertile breeding ground for youths to be radicalised and turn to fight the evil Christains.

And, it's going to get more bloody. I heard somewhere that we were embedding a number of soldiers into the Afghan Army units to provide them support. These guys are fighting on the 'front line' in much more dangerous territory.

I'm not sure if Australia is prepared...

Not sure what there is to discuss on this topic. Just putting it out there as a general comment, or if anyone else thinks this is winnable, or worthwhile venture, or is there another way we can win this war?

Is diplomacy possible?

Your comments are interesting Kennas, I think until the tribal areas in North Pakistan have a political solution / the tribes are used to get rid of foreign fighters / moderate Taliban brought into a political talks its going to be nasty and un-win-able.

The solution is politics

 

[robert toms]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

Didn't John Howard say something like...we will decide who enters our country and by what means,when referring to boat people.
In Iraq and Afghanistan it has been we will decide whose country we enter and concoct any reason to justify ourselves.
Two lots of extremists....Taliban and Western forces.
Who will give in first.
No problem solvers in sight...only extremists.

 

[Sean K]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

No problem solvers in sight...only extremists.

Not sure Robert, I think Afghanistan is a just war. The general human values displayed by the Taliban when in power are probably a tad lower than the general values of the Western world. I believe that even if 9/11 didn't occurr the international community should have acted, as it should have in Rwanda, Bosnia, and Darfur before so many sufferred.

 

[Julia]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

Just over the last week I've heard several commentators suggest that this war is simply unwinnable and the time has come to "negotiate with the Taliban".

 

[Sean K]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

Just over the last week I've heard several commentators suggest that this war is simply unwinnable and the time has come to "negotiate with the Taliban".

Yeah, they need to make some effort to speak to the not so extremist, if they exist. A 'moderate' Taliban?? And then they influence the real extremists....hmmmm

Maybe we just need to find them all a job.....

 

[IFocus]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

Yeah, they need to make some effort to speak to the not so extremist, if they exist. A 'moderate' Taliban?? And then they influence the real extremists....hmmmm

Maybe we just need to find them all a job.....

The northern tribal area in Pakistan is one of the keys. Unfortunately Pakistan has killed a number of tribal chiefs and the US is hell bent on killing more along with the general population.

So the whole area is in chaos with no firm leadership so there is effectively no one to create a solution with similar as to what the US did with the Sunnis in Iraq.

The Elephant in the room is Russia.

They have a number of scores to settle remember stinger missiles, plus if they can tie up Nato and US forces in Afghanistan more so then it gives them an opportunity to work on securing its natural borders watch out Ukraine etc Germany has already signaled it wont interfere.

So Russia ups the anti and start to seriously supplying weapons etc, they will want to take up from where the Pakistani ISI left off.

Unfortunately it means more casualties

I have to agree with Robert but didn't the Bali Bombers training come out of Afghanistan?

 

[robert toms]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

Where were all of invaders trained that have been interfering and killing in Afghanistan for many years?Russia,Britain, US,Nato,Australia?Which countries have been manipulating them for many years ...viewing their lives as expendable ?
Australia's hands are not clean.
Their lives are as important to them as are ours.
No problem solvers in sight....keep the rubbish going.
How dare there be any backlash against external manipulators and invaders !

 

[Sean K]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

Where were all of invaders trained that have been interfering and killing in Afghanistan for many years?Russia,Britain, US,Nato,Australia?Which countries have been manipulating them for many years ...viewing their lives as expendable ?
Australia's hands are not clean.
Their lives are as important to them as are ours.
No problem solvers in sight....keep the rubbish going.
How dare there be any backlash against external manipulators and invaders !

Yes Robert, interferance for various reasons. Not sure if they are all for the same purpose however. The current intervention is under a much different pretext to the British and Russian invasions. I think the greater % of the current pop actually want us there. The rubbish will continue until the people committing crimes against humanity are brought to justice. If the IRC had a military arm they would be fighting this one.

 

[robert toms]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

For every war we are bombarded with propaganda...so it is is with this one.
The invasion if Afghanistan started to try to destroy Bin Laden and his mob.This broadened and expanded to overthrowing the government...the Taliban.The current government was never voted in,and was placed in position because they,no doubt,made pledges to the US.
Sure as hell this has nothing to do with Australia...same as GB's invasion of Iraq.
This not a fight of good against evil...although that is what we are bombarded with.

More like one group of extremists versus another.

 

[Sean K]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

This not a fight of good against evil.

More like one group of extremists versus another.

Overall, I can't see how you can say that we are an extremist society. Surprising actually.

You really should have a read up on what the Taliban implimented in Afghanistan and compare it to the west to get a hold on what is 'extremist'.

Maybe just have a look at how they treated women (as policy) for a start. Sharia law is not female friendly...

 

[robert toms]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

Overall, I can't see how you can say that we are an extremist society. Surprising actually.

You really should have a read up on what the Taliban implimented in Afghanistan and compare it to the west to get a hold on what is 'extremist'.

Maybe just have a look at how they treated women (as policy) for a start. Sharia law is not female friendly...

Our role is an association with an extremist perpetual war country...the US .No doubt we have a triple A rating as faithful-dog country with the US.
I see the US and Australia as countries with double standards to say the least.
Lets not just treat women badly...lets invade ,displace populations,kill etc.
Gender is not a barrier,not even relevant
No worries ,because a good public information campaign will help our moral superiority.
Who was it that said "The nauseating hypocrisy of western leaders and their captive media"
So in order to assert our moral superiority we will indulge in the decimation of foreign populations?
Do you think that western countries will ever be intelligent enough to get off their moral high-horses and indulge in some meaningful negotiation?

Why do you think that some groups become extremist?
I noted with resignation that all of the four candidates in the US elections had to confirm their warlike qualifications.
Nothing much changes.

 

[Sean K]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

Someone else said, 'only the dead have seen the end of war'.

I'm still truggling with your thoughts that intervention in Afghanistan is not just.

The Taliban is an Army at war with anything forward thinking and wants all to live as the Prophet did 1400 years ago. It's at war with the West.

Have a read of their history and moral code on wiki.

 

[awg]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

i base my reply on history.

Afghanistan has been fought over for thousands of years.

but never bought under control, of the invaders

This is one Australia will have to walk away from sooner or later

 

[prawn_86]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

I'm still truggling with your thoughts that intervention in Afghanistan is not just.

The Taliban is an Army at war with anything forward thinking and wants all to live as the Prophet did 1400 years ago. It's at war with the West.
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I have to say i disagree on this one Kennas.

Each country to their own and if the people there did not like it, then it is them who should have rose up and fought it. It is not up to another country to decide what is right/wrong/just/moral etc

EG - Why shouldnt Iran nuke all 'Westerners' as they dont agree with our 'hedonistic' lifestyle?

But thats just my opinion and i know you have a lot more experience in this area.

 

[Julia]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

I have to say i disagree on this one Kennas.

Each country to their own and if the people there did not like it, then it is them who should have rose up and fought it. It is not up to another country to decide what is right/wrong/just/moral etc

EG - Why shouldnt Iran nuke all 'Westerners' as they dont agree with our 'hedonistic' lifestyle?

But thats just my opinion and i know you have a lot more experience in this area.

I'm with you on this, Prawn. The Iran analogy is quite justified.
Wasn't the original justification for the war in Afghanistan that Osama bin Laden was supposed to be hiding there? Even if he were, I've never understood why bombing the whole country, with all its already disadvantaged citizens , was going to find him.

It all just seemed to me to be the US striking out almost blindly in order to avenge the 9/11 attack.

 

[chops_a_must]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

Someone else said, 'only the dead have seen the end of war'.

I'm still truggling with your thoughts that intervention in Afghanistan is not just.

The Taliban is an Army at war with anything forward thinking and wants all to live as the Prophet did 1400 years ago. It's at war with the West.

Have a read of their history and moral code on wiki.

I'm as pink as they come Kennas, and I have and had no problems with the Afghani invasion.

As early as 2000, I can remember mates and I bringing it up at local political meetings, being the hard core political 16 year old activists we were...

I guess they attacked for completely different reasons than for what we wanted them to though...

 

[chops_a_must]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

I'm with you on this, Prawn. The Iran analogy is quite justified.
Wasn't the original justification for the war in Afghanistan that Osama bin Laden was supposed to be hiding there? Even if he were, I've never understood why bombing the whole country, with all its already disadvantaged citizens , was going to find him.

It all just seemed to me to be the US striking out almost blindly in order to avenge the 9/11 attack.

Yeah, sad to think that ethnic cleansing barely drew a response from the western world, yet the unfortunate but in perspective insignificant loss of life in NY drew a full scale war.

 

[kitehigh]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

I'm with you on this, Prawn. The Iran analogy is quite justified.
Wasn't the original justification for the war in Afghanistan that Osama bin Laden was supposed to be hiding there? Even if he were, I've never understood why bombing the whole country, with all its already disadvantaged citizens , was going to find him.

It all just seemed to me to be the US striking out almost blindly in order to avenge the 9/11 attack.

A bit of an over statement there Julia, I wouldn't say bombing Taliban strongholds equated to bombing the entire country. The coalition actually uses targeted strikes against enemy targets not random carpet bombing. Another misconception you will hear is reconstruction, this implies that you are rebuilding an area when in fact construction should be the word used as this is reality on the ground.
It is fact that Osama bin Laden and his Al Qaeda were operating in Afghanistan quite openly until the Northern Alliance with help from the US over threw the Taliban.
One thing which I can't understand is why the Europeans aren't doing more to stabilize the country as they have more to lose here if things go pear shaped. Canada and Australia are two big contributers to the actually fighting areas and have the least to gain except for some battle experience.
Its all a stalemate at the moment, neither side is in the position to push for a complete victory. So the war will continue.

"Only the dead have seen the end of war" was a quote by Plato. Here is another good Plato quote "Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil."