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14 year old boy arrested in Bali

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Tink said:
Have to agree there JTLP, Mental Health is bursting at the seams, and most is drug related.
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Sure it's be proven among certain users. Certain users of alcohol should also be prohibited from consuming it because they become violent. Problem gamblers should also be prevented from gambling. Why should everyone be banned?
 
McLovin said:
And? Alcohol causes plenty of crime and ruins plenty of lives. Should it be banned too?



If it was legalised you'd also remove a lot of the trafficking crime. And my tax dollars wouldn't be wasted on cosmetic police operations that actually do sweet FA to prevent drug use. How many "big" cocaine or ecstacy busts are shown on the nightly news and yet despite that the street price of those drugs hasn't changed.



What about if he's shivving you for 20 bucks to buy a pack of cigarettes or booze, ok then?
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I'm not denying that alcohol doesn't cause crime...it's also not illegal though - so I don't know why you're going down that path?

Legalising what? All drugs? Marijuana? Provide context and I'll provide an answer.

To be honest why would you want any drugs legalised? You're basically caving in to drug users demands. I don't want bongs/pipes etc sitting around my public area because somebody decided that there were too many middle men and legalising it would bring down the trafficking.
 
McLovin said:
Why? I'd rather my tax dollars actually contributed to something useful than busting teens with an 8 ball of weed on them. The overwhelming majority of people who do drugs lead otherwise normal productive lives.

Don't get me started on the sniffer dogs in pubs and on public transport either. :mad:
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I agree. Eliminate the laws for minor posession, and then regulate the market. Then you won't have minors getting charged for minor posession anymore :)
 
JTLP said:
I'm not denying that alcohol doesn't cause crime...it's also not illegal though - so I don't know why you're going down that path?
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Because you said that drugs cause crime and ruin lives, I'm pointing out that lots of legal things have the same effect.

JTLP said:
Legalising what? All drugs? Marijuana? Provide context and I'll provide an answer.
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Marijuana yes.

JTLP said:
To be honest why would you want any drugs legalised? You're basically caving in to drug users demands. I don't want bongs/pipes etc sitting around my public area because somebody decided that there were too many middle men and legalising it would bring down the trafficking.
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No you're not. You're accepting that you are wasting your money and not actually stopping anyone from doing drugs. Just because something is made legal doesn't mean everyone will start doing it, the Netherlands is testament to that. In fact the Netherlands has a lower rate of usage than much of the rest of Europe.

If you really think that drugs being illegal has done anything except waste a lot of taxpayer money then I'm afraid you have your head in the sand. The reality is that anyone who wants drugs can get them and without too much effort. If the policy worked you would expect either a) an increase in the street price of drugs b) fewer people doing drugs, neither is true.
 
McLovin said:
Because you said that drugs cause crime and ruin lives, I'm pointing out that lots of legal things have the same effect.



Marijuana yes.



No you're not. You're accepting that you are wasting your money and not actually stopping anyone from doing drugs. Just because something is made legal doesn't mean everyone will start doing it, the Netherlands is testament to that. In fact the Netherlands has a lower rate of usage than much of the rest of Europe.

If you really think that drugs being illegal has done anything except waste a lot of taxpayer money then I'm afraid you have your head in the sand. The reality is that anyone who wants drugs can get them and without too much effort. If the policy worked you would expect either a) an increase in the street price of drugs b) fewer people doing drugs, neither is true.
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Point 1 - Drugs have never been legal. Alcohol may have gone through trials and tribulations but ultimately it's legal. I'm not trying to ban anything - just saying legalising drugs isn't the way to go.

Point 2 - I was thinking before about this...so if we legalise drugs are we going to have radical reforms in terms of mental health etc and social issues to go with it? There is still a 'danger' to drugs that I'm sure turns more people away than towards. And why should we advocate the people who make the drugs? So they can lead even richer/fatter lives whilst destroying others? Yeah great.

Point 3 - Why would prices go up? It's not dopewars on your TI-83 calculator. People refine the product or offer less to keep prices constant. And people can now get drugs without too much effort - so if it were legalised would it be an effortless adventure? "Just popping down to the drug booth to pick me up a couple of J's!"..."Remember Jimmy don't smoke that stuff and drive home...that could be harmful".

Netherlands a testament? Have a flick through this:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/10/us-dutch-drugs-idUSTRE7992IX20111010

The article has both pro's and con's for you and I...but if you think tax dollars will be saved when they legalise it...think about the programs people will expect and the added repercussions.
 
JTLP said:
Point 1 - Drugs have never been legal. Alcohol may have gone through trials and tribulations but ultimately it's legal. I'm not trying to ban anything - just saying legalising drugs isn't the way to go.
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Is that relevant? By that logic nothing should ever be changed.

JTLP said:
Point 2 - I was thinking before about this...so if we legalise drugs are we going to have radical reforms in terms of mental health etc and social issues to go with it? There is still a 'danger' to drugs that I'm sure turns more people away than towards. And why should we advocate the people who make the drugs? So they can lead even richer/fatter lives whilst destroying others? Yeah great.
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The product would regulated and taxed just like cigarettes, alcohol and gambling. I'm not sure why you think radical reforms are needed, drugs are fairly prevalent as is, and I don't see that number changing regardless of legality. At least if it's regulated the financial costs can be borne by users rather than society, of course the social costs will exist regardless of legal status, which is my point. The supply chain would also be regulated so dealers would lose out.

JTLP said:
Point 3 - Why would prices go up? It's not dopewars on your TI-83 calculator. People refine the product or offer less to keep prices constant. And people can now get drugs without too much effort - so if it were legalised would it be an effortless adventure? "Just popping down to the drug booth to pick me up a couple of J's!"..."Remember Jimmy don't smoke that stuff and drive home...that could be harmful".
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If they drug busts were making serious inroads into the supply chain then yes prices would go up, the alternative being people spend more if the product is heavily cut.

JTLP said:
Netherlands a testament? Have a flick through this:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/10/us-dutch-drugs-idUSTRE7992IX20111010

The article has both pro's and con's for you and I...but if you think tax dollars will be saved when they legalise it...think about the programs people will expect and the added repercussions.
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I don't see how that article refutes the fact that the Netherlands has a lower rate of cannabis use than other comparable countries in Europe? It's been pretty well known for along time that many Dutch don't like their country being used as giant bong for tourists.

If the item is taxed, and usage remains more or less constant then the health costs (an externality of the price of cannabis) of treating those who suffer from mental illness as a result of cannabis is partly paid for by users, unlike the current situation where none of it is.
 
We already have several threads discussing the legalising of drugs. Do we really need to turn what's a politically fascinating topic into yet another "yes, we should/no, we shouldn't' diatribe?

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Poor Julia is trying to keep up with Kevin in the "make a fuss of the stupid 14 yo kid" stakes. Apparently she has actually phoned and spoken directly with the boy.

What on earth is all this attention at ministerial level doing to the boy's understanding of taking responsibility?

i.e. he does something utterly stupid and is rewarded by becoming not only a media celebrity but a cause celebre amongst the country's politicians!

Let's get a bit realistic here!
 
Julia said:
We already have several threads discussing the legalising of drugs. Do we really need to turn what's a politically fascinating topic into yet another "yes, we should/no, we shouldn't' diatribe?



Poor Julia is trying to keep up with Kevin in the "make a fuss of the stupid 14 yo kid" stakes. Apparently she has actually phoned and spoken directly with the boy.

What on earth is all this attention at ministerial level doing to the boy's understanding of taking responsibility?

i.e. he does something utterly stupid and is rewarded by becoming not only a media celebrity but a cause celebre amongst the country's politicians!

Let's get a bit realistic here!
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It is not by the childs wish that he be made a paraiah... You want realism but maintain a severely misguided view on the matter?

You would ruin the life of a child to be thrown into hell with hardened criminals to prove a point about a single gram of Cannabis?
 
Julia said:
i.e. he does something utterly stupid and is rewarded by becoming not only a media celebrity but a cause celebre amongst the country's politicians!

Let's get a bit realistic here!
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Any distraction is a good distraction from the carbon tax issue.
 
LostMyShirt said:
It is not by the childs wish that he be made a paraiah... You want realism but maintain a severely misguided view on the matter?
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I may feel that it's you who has a misguided view on the matter.
I've simply noted that Indonesian laws are the laws of that country and it's irrelevant whether we in Australia think those laws are inappropriate.

Do you really think, considering all the other global issues that governments should be dealing with at present, the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister should be having a competition to see who can appear the 'most compassionate' by personally phoning this kid?
We have diplomats to sort out situations like this. The personal contest between Rudd and Gillard on this is actually jeopardising a happy outcome. Can't you see that?

In the meantime, our government is entirely happy to imprison Indonesian children as people smugglers in Australian jails.

Can you not see the hypocrisy here, not to mention the affront in diplomatic terms to Indonesia, on whom the Australian government is highly dependent for co-operation in protecting our borders??

You would ruin the life of a child to be thrown into hell with hardened criminals to prove a point about a single gram of Cannabis?
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Show me where I have said I want the kid to be imprisoned.
 
The teenager is doomed. Now that the Red Queen has stuck her unwelcome nose into the matter the Indo's will not be taking a backward step. Apparently they are not real happy about the Aussie press calling Bali a "drug factory".

:kiffer:
 
The message for anyone caught up in this sort of madness: Act very fast, keep it as quiet as possible, and pay whatever is asked. Do not expect justice to be conducted the way it is here. And most of all, don't travel to 3rd world countries when we have the world's best beaches right here!
 
Gringotts Bank said:
The message for anyone caught up in this sort of madness: Act very fast, keep it as quiet as possible, and pay whatever is asked. Do not expect justice to be conducted the way it is here. And most of all, don't travel to 3rd world countries when we have the world's best beaches right here!
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Isn't the message don't buy drugs?:confused:
 
Julia said:
I may feel that it's you who has a misguided view on the matter.
I've simply noted that Indonesian laws are the laws of that country and it's irrelevant whether we in Australia think those laws are inappropriate.

Do you really think, considering all the other global issues that governments should be dealing with at present, the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister should be having a competition to see who can appear the 'most compassionate' by personally phoning this kid?
We have diplomats to sort out situations like this. The personal contest between Rudd and Gillard on this is actually jeopardising a happy outcome. Can't you see that?

In the meantime, our government is entirely happy to imprison Indonesian children as people smugglers in Australian jails.

Can you not see the hypocrisy here, not to mention the affront in diplomatic terms to Indonesia, on whom the Australian government is highly dependent for co-operation in protecting our borders??


Show me where I have said I want the kid to be imprisoned.
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First off; I realize the laws are different, but step down from the diplomatic high horse. This is a ye'olde form of relative morality. The fact is that he is an Australian citizen, he is 14 years of age and regardless of the two former points, no one should have to be subjecated to imprisonment with violent offenders for the sake of a couple of grams of Cannabis. This view is derived from both compassion and an understanding of the history of drug laws and their blatant corruptability.

It is not by the boys wish he be contacted by heads of state.

I am not condoning the imprisonment of Children in detention centres, in the same manner I would not condone the imprisonment of children with murderers and rapists.

My advice to all is to step away from diplomatic worship and hindsight, and have a look through the window of reality. Stop deriving your views from silliness. Many members who derive this view purely from diplomacy would have different views on the manner of which Women are treated in finatical middle eastern countires. My take on those issues are very simple; diplomacy is garbage when dealing with human life. Reality is the key, and Law worship is a cloud on the window of reality.

The second Quotation, Julia, was not aimed at you - I don't see wher you mentioned this specificaly - however the end result of your view is exactly the same. You would ruin the life - a one off given gift, of a 14 year old to maintain your views on diplomacy and international law. This is not a drug smuggler, or people trafficer - he is a 14 year old who most likely got bored and was coaxed into buying some grass from a street beggar.
 
LostMyShirt said:
This is not a drug smuggler, or people trafficer - he is a 14 year old who most likely got bored and was coaxed into buying some grass from a street beggar.
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He is just a spoiled brat, unlike the Indonesian minors we keep in captivity.

Unlike the young man in Bali who fortunately has his family and Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd's frenetic, and the cynic might observe, politically-motivated lobbying efforts to support him, these young Indonesian boys have no one to help them cope with the horror that is being detained anywhere, let alone in a foreign country.

These young Indonesians are generally crew members of vessels carrying asylum seekers and who are intercepted by Australian Navy or Customs officials. They come from backgrounds of grinding poverty, speak little or no English, and have had none of the exposure to the world that the average Australian boy and girl will have had by the time they are in their teens.
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Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...e-bali-teen-20111011-1lhy9.html#ixzz1aWezRopZ
 
LostMyShirt said:
What makes you think that such a situation does't fill me with contempt? I am utterly disgusted - but two wrongs don't make a right; bring the boys back home.
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What fills me with contempt is that this brat and his negligent parents are being showered with political support at the highest level.. This undeserving trio will emerge from this farce as celebrities.
 
Calliope said:
He is just a spoiled brat, unlike the Indonesian minors we keep in captivity.



Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...e-bali-teen-20111011-1lhy9.html#ixzz1aWezRopZ
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Who spoilt him?, and he is just 14 years old. And who spoilt the parents?, our decadent society in my view.

Anyway, we cut down the trees for the lumber and the locals lost their primitive villiage life, so perhaps industrialised humankind deserves everything it gets and concede that it also includes the responsibility to care for the boat people.
 
explod said:
Anyway, we cut down the trees for the lumber and the locals lost their primitive villiage life, so perhaps industrialised humankind deserves everything it gets and concede that it also includes the responsibility to care for the boat people.
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Typical Greenie off-topic rubbish.:rolleyes:
 
explod said:
Who spoilt him?, and he is just 14 years old. And who spoilt the parents?, our decadent society in my view.

Anyway, we cut down the trees for the lumber and the locals lost their primitive villiage life, so perhaps industrialised humankind deserves everything it gets and concede that it also includes the responsibility to care for the boat people.
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Why stop with industrialisation ?

We could always blame Lucy and her kind for becoming bipedal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_(Australopithecus)
 
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