Where in the hell is Australia heading?

[DB008]

Have you ever had to convert from a phone line to a naked adsl connection?

Yep...and...

to draw on a great example...we have to put up with the most ridiculously expensive, slow and ****ty internet right in the middle of Sydney CBD.

Great example of a incompetent IT department that doesn't know what it's doing. I live a few clicks from the CBD and have ADSL2+. Also get 200gb for $80 per month, expensive, not really when you hear horror stories from the USA and Canada where people pay $50 for 'unlimited' ADSL and get snail speed (But l'm sure that you knew this already).
ADSL2 is more than fast enough for todays work loads, the only industries that could come close to utilising super fast NBN speeds would be hospitals doing video surgery, universities doing complex mathematical scenarios/earthquake hypotheticals with one another (live) and possibly ASIO/another Government department that needs it for real time issues with other agencies.

China is moving to impose emission caps by next year, several Chinese provinces already operate their own emission trading schemes. The current five year plan has significant commitment to stopping the rise of emissions while growing the Chinese economy.

The Times; China's coal power plants among least efficient in the world
Turning China into the world’s manufacturing centre has given us a bountiful supply of dirt-cheap goods but is proving an environmental disaster. Chinese industry is overwhelmingly dependent on coal for its energy and China’s coal-fired power stations are among the least efficient in the world.

Germany also has a 4 (if not 40) times better government. Better than Libs, Labor, Greens, whatever other party you can think of.

Prove it! I was in Germany earlier this year, think times a tough here, go and have a look there!

Just about everything in Germany is done the way it should be done

Including immigration?

In Germany, in the last 70 years, real property medians haven't risen once.

Another load of BS. Your source please?

Traffic is ridiculous, there is not even any space on footpaths during peak hour. Our governments (federal, state and local) are a joke.

I just spent 6 weeks in Europe. Traffic is pretty bad there too! All the major cities were clogged during peak hour.

My views are not ever negative - merely realistic.

Only in your eyes.

That and immigrant workers because apparently you boomers are too good for driving a truck for $280k pa.

Another load of BS from Starcraftmazter. Haul-pack operators aren't on 280k pa. I did 4 years FIFO (as a professional) in WA and l know the rates.

 

[sptrawler]

Starcraftmazter, if you work for a really professional company that supplies export quality product and is hamstrung by crap internet speed. Why not pay to have optical run to your office, why should I have to pay for it.

 

[startrader]

Starcraftmaster the NET OVERSEAS IMMIGRATION under the Coalition was 126,000 a year but under Labor rose to more than 300,000 and has decreased to 171,000 for the past year. I was not talking about the net permanent and long term arrivals as per your non relevant graph.

 

[drsmith]

Well first of all, I would suggest that I would pay my fair share through taxes.

How much tax you pay as an individual is not relevant to the point I raised.

We must use mining revenue to spend big on infrastructure, especially to encourage non-mining exporting companies - or this country has no future. Mining cannot and will not last us forever. China will not continue growing forever. This is my view.

Again, not relevant to the point I raised.

Second of all, I would argue that the NBN will contribute immensely to our economy (especially IT & professional services) and education, and is worth the cost.

But, at any cost ?

Remember, you said $100bn.

Do you have a cost/benefit analysis to support that ?

 

[drsmith]

Keep dreaming Abbott will be PM soon enough then what............will he actually answer questions? Ha ha ha ha ha (hilarious)

God I will have a field day bring it on please.

In the meantime, I hope you have the bunker well stocked.

 

[IFocus]

In the meantime, I hope you have the bunker well stocked.

Europe may develop that necessity unfortunately, if not the Coalition will surely give us a recession we have to have with their spending cuts including reducing the public service that's currently the same size as in 1991, dunder heats incorporated.

 

[satanoperca]

Europe may develop that necessity unfortunately, if not the Coalition will surely give us a recession we have to have with their spending cuts including reducing the public service that's currently the same size as in 1991, dunder heats incorporated.

Hi Ifocus,

Are you implying that if Libs get in at the next election and have to make drastic spending cuts it will be their fault we go into a recession or are you implying that the Libs will have to make drastic spending cuts due to the current Labor government spending more than they have and putting our national into unnecessary debt.

Either way, I think the fault clearly lies with this government not the next.

Cheers

 

[IFocus]

Hi Ifocus,

Are you implying that if Libs get in at the next election and have to make drastic spending cuts it will be their fault we go into a recession or are you implying that the Libs will have to make drastic spending cuts due to the current Labor government spending more than they have and putting our national into unnecessary debt.

Either way, I think the fault clearly lies with this government not the next.

Cheers

No argument on who has been spending, but the idiot policy statements coming out from the Coalition is continually being ignored by the media and the ASF cheer squad.

Abbott's continued talking down Australians situation is seriously over blown by any measurement (no argument with the politics it works proven by the US Republicans) but if you are going to apply standards to the government (again no argument) then apply the same to Abbott..........gaping hole at best.

Abbott's continual refusal to scrutiny is almost historic in Australian politics.

The cuts so far leaked by Hockey are at best dysfunctional.

 

[drsmith]

Europe may develop that necessity unfortunately, if not the Coalition will surely give us a recession we have to have with their spending cuts including reducing the public service that's currently the same size as in 1991, dunder heats incorporated.

The next recession we have to have won't be the first.

I was referring to the ALP supporter's bunker. It will need ample provisions and a thick reinforced roof.

 

[drsmith]

No argument on who has been spending,

The $100bn NBN man doesn't mind a little spending.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

Great example of a incompetent IT department that doesn't know what it's doing. I live a few clicks from the CBD and have ADSL2+. Also get 200gb for $80 per month, expensive, not really when you hear horror stories from the USA and Canada where people pay $50 for 'unlimited' ADSL and get snail speed (But l'm sure that you knew this already).

This is simply a serious of ill-made assumptions for you. First of all, it sounds as though you are referring to retail ADSL2+. Any real business needs a guarantee of speed 24x7, and this will cost a lot more than $80.

Second of all, due to our particular needs, we need SHDSL as ADSL does not provide an adequate upload speed. Again, this costs a lot more than $80.

Prove it! I was in Germany earlier this year, think times a tough here, go and have a look there!

Housing market - case and point. Look at their infrastructure - case and point. Their government won't even allow a bailout not involving private bank losses - case and point.

Including immigration?

Well, it achieves results I suppose. They can hope with it, we can't.

Another load of BS. Your source please?

I suggest you do your research before saying "load of BS".
http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/201...able-housing/real-house-prices-germany-vs-uk/

I just spent 6 weeks in Europe. Traffic is pretty bad there too! All the major cities were clogged during peak hour.

Some EU countries are definitely very bad. I am not making a case for all of Europe at all.

Another load of BS from Starcraftmazter. Haul-pack operators aren't on 280k pa. I did 4 years FIFO (as a professional) in WA and l know the rates.

Not sure where I read it (only a few weeks ago), there was one account of a truck driver on 250k, who said they will be asking for 280k this year.

Starcraftmazter, if you work for a really professional company that supplies export quality product and is hamstrung by crap internet speed. Why not pay to have optical run to your office, why should I have to pay for it.

Ridiculously expensive.

Starcraftmaster the NET OVERSEAS IMMIGRATION under the Coalition was 126,000 a year but under Labor rose to more than 300,000 and has decreased to 171,000 for the past year. I was not talking about the net permanent and long term arrivals as per your non relevant graph.

Well that is the only relevant thing. Departures and arrivals (what you refer to) is not immigration, but tourists, students, etc.

Do you have a cost/benefit analysis to support that ?

It is not possible to do a cost/benefit analysis of something like the NBN, and I would argue it is irrelevant either way. It is worth at any cost at which it can be reasonably built.

 

[drsmith]

It is not possible to do a cost/benefit analysis of something like the NBN, and I would argue it is irrelevant either way. It is worth at any cost at which it can be reasonably built.

This attitude of spend regardless of the underlying merit demonstrates well why this government are such bad fiscal managers.

 

[sptrawler]

Ridiculously expensive.

Again I ask why should I pay for it, when business and high data usage industries are the ones who benefit.
It is a bit like you saying why should the younger generation have to pay for baby boomer aged care, When your generation isn't using it.
By the same principal, why should the baby boomers and tax payers in general, have to pay for the N.B.N when the beneficiaries are business and government.

 

[Julia]

SCM, where did you get the expression "case and point" from?
What does it mean?

 

[Starcraftmazter]

This attitude of spend regardless of the underlying merit demonstrates well why this government are such bad fiscal managers.

Mate this is probably an ideological difference more than anything. In my view there is simply no good alternative to take us forward. Sometimes something of high quality is worth the price...and this is from a person who buys zero discretionary items

Again I ask why should I pay for it, when business and high data usage industries are the ones who benefit.

Can you guarantee that your children won't benefit from it? You also need to consider indirect benefits which you receive by Australia receiving economic benefits from it.

Whether you like it or not, everyone benefits.

 

[satanoperca]

Don't really wish to get involved in this debate as time will show that the NBN will be an absolute waste of money that this govnuts do not have. Oh, the solution, borrow the money that will benefit my child immensly in the future.

My young son has access to the internet, how much faster does he need to download pr0n, he only has two hands and one dick, just kidding.

While access to the internet is important for all Australians, if it means that the govnuts have to put us further into debt, then the answer is no from me.

Technology is changing rapidly and by the time they implement this system it will already be out dated. I just look back over the last few years, from dial up to ADSL, I now using my iphone for my internet connection, fast enough for me to trade 5 min time frames and 12gb is plenty for me each month.

I do wonder if this money could be spent elsewhere for a better return on our (the taxpayers) dollar.

I see the arguement that there is no better alternative, that does not mean you take a less than adequate solution, well that depends if you think giving everyone $900 was a good future investment for Australians.

Cheers

 

[sptrawler]

Mate this is probably an ideological difference more than anything. In my view there is simply no good alternative to take us forward. Sometimes something of high quality is worth the price...and this is from a person who buys zero discretionary items



Can you guarantee that your children won't benefit from it? You also need to consider indirect benefits which you receive by Australia receiving economic benefits from it.

Whether you like it or not, everyone benefits.

Why? because you say so. What a load of BS it is the same argument for the carbon tax.
What if you are wrong on both counts, the result is a huge amount of debt for the N.B.N and a completely decimated manufacturing industry with the carbon tax.
I certainly hope you are right, it doesn't effect my kids but it will my grandkids.
The difference between me and you is probably 20-30 years and from my perspective there has been nothing, this government has done that inspires confidence.
If they are wrong s#!ts are trumps!!!!!!

 

[DB008]

This is simply a serious of ill-made assumptions for you. First of all, it sounds as though you are referring to retail ADSL2+. Any real business needs a guarantee of speed 24x7, and this will cost a lot more than $80.

Second of all, due to our particular needs, we need SHDSL as ADSL does not provide an adequate upload speed. Again, this costs a lot more than $80.

2 minutes on Google.

http://www.shiftreload.com/internet-access-pricing.asp

http://www.exetel.com.au/business_shdsl.php

http://www.summitinternet.com.au/business-broadband/adsl2/ (20mbps)
http://www.summitinternet.com.au/business-broadband/shdsl/

 

[Starcraftmazter]

Why? because you say so. What a load of BS it is the same argument for the carbon tax.

Well I would presume I have more technical education and knowledge than you, as nobody else I know who's in the IT field disagrees with me. The vast majority of people in the IT field (ie. the ones who actually have the knowledge to judge NBN against any other proposal) support it.

What if you are wrong on both counts, the result is a huge amount of debt for the N.B.N

It's not huge, it's barely anything for such a massive infrastructure project.

and a completely decimated manufacturing industry with the carbon tax.

That's a fruitful exaggeration. The ETS has basically zero effect on manufacturing.

http://www.shiftreload.com/internet-access-pricing.asp

There are many other ISPs which have the same sort of speeds and cost. This is precisely my point - this is nothing compared to what the NBN would be able to deliver in terms of speed, and far too expensive compared to what businesses can get in the USA and Europe.

http://www.exetel.com.au/business_shdsl.php

Exetel is one of the worst ISPs there is, their CEO can't do anything rights and changes plans every month.

http://www.summitinternet.com.au/business-broadband/adsl2/ (20mbps)
http://www.summitinternet.com.au/business-broadband/shdsl/

I don't see any upload speed greater than 1mb/s (inadequate).


Please stop pretending you know what you're talking about when it comes to choosing an internet connection for an IT business - which you are not even part of.

 

[Smurf1976]

That's a fruitful exaggeration. The ETS has basically zero effect on manufacturing.

That is clearly incorrect based on the government's information.