The world punishes the honest and hard working

[Julia]

Just focus on the good parts of the world, the parts of your life that you are comfortable with and the things you enjoy. Hating the world for the way it is yields nothing but pain because no individual has the power to correct it.

I've sadly come to believe this. We all like to think our righteous indignation and genuine protests will yield a result, but it rarely happens, so best we can do is try to preserve our own sanity by understanding the limits of our influence.

So, each time someone indulges in dishonesty, manipulation, control tactics or coercion, they are doing themselves a massive disservice. They just don't understand that it creates even more and more fear in them. Fear of loss, fear of exclusion or death or whatever it is. It's absolutely not worth it. You get the money, then you struggle to sleep! For a religious person, it's even worse - you know, karma and all that nonsense?

I believe it's absolutely possible to be rich and a honest, fair and reasonable man. I haven't yet proven it to my own satisfaction, thats' why I trade.

I've only quoted a small amount of a good post. It's what we would all like to believe is true.
However, there are plenty of people who can indulge in the worst behaviours, careless of the effect on their fellow citizens, and absolutely not give a damn.

 

[Tyler Durden]

Thanks to all those who have responded thus far - many many insightful views.

I'd also like to quote another friend of mine, who once said "if you are willing to put away your morals, you can make lots of money". It almost seems like our morals are limits on our financial ability.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

I used to believe that Durden.

What helped was seeing just one really good example of effortless ease in making money ethically in business. Then you know it's possible, but without all the harmful scheming and cheating that 99% of rich people indulge in.

edit: I'm not down on the rich really, though it might sound like it. They see the world a certain way, and they act accordingly. What stops most other people doing the same is fear of karma or hell or whatever your particular religion calls "divine punishment". They actually believe there's a God who will punish them if they step out of line. It's such a deeply buried, widely held and sensitive belief that most people have strong gut reactions when it's brought to the surface as I'm doing now! LOL! And don't assume that people who have no religion aren't scared of God! They absolutely are!

 

[Glen48]

Mr. G Banks you are correct the few rich people I know/knew all like to talk about how much money they made and how hard they worked, getting up at going to bed at 1 am getting up at 4 am first to work last to leave .

I also notice they like to control but if you stand up to them they turn to water, drink with the women because they don't like or afraid of male company chasing some thing that does not exist.

 

[tothemax6]

Bollocks.
Take Egypt for a recent example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Egyptian_revolution
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

We will see in 5 years what replaces the old egyptian regime. Regime changes have so far yielded nothing in Africa or the Middle East in the long run. Take southern africa for instance. When Mugabe conquered Rhodesia, it was hailed as a step in the direction of democracy and racial equality. Today you can go on youtube and type in 'Salisbury Rhodesia'. Compare that with 'Harare Zimbabwe'. No democracy, no racial equality, and mostly starvation in the former 'bread basket of Africa'.
In the short run people get high on the notion of 'all change is for the best', when in reality most of the time the 'change' they refer to was simply a load of noise and commotion.

agreed to a point... though getting passionate and angry is ok so long as that passion and anger is informed and thus focussed on the forces most responsible for the corruption that causes the world to be so unfair... yes i'll answer again with another TJ quote (gotta love em!)
"Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and opressions of the body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day."
”” Thomas Jefferson

Unfortunately the ideas of Jefferson cannot be broadcast into the heads of the populace. There are competing ideas, and most people either do not put in the investment required to deduce the correct ideas, or are intellectually and moral incapable of deducing the correct ideas, or just don't care.
The theory of memetics better models the minds of mankind than the theory of reason.

 

[cynic]

Fascinating thread.

Whilst I can appreciate that there are those in the world that like to believe that wealth is synonymous with dishonesty and/or unscrupulous business ethics, this need not necessarily be the case. I know of a number of people whom (whilst not quite millionaires) have managed to accumulate sufficient wealth to be totally debt free with their house/s owned outright and 5 or 6 figures in the bank. So it can be achieved by some.

One in particular managed to pay off two mortgages during his working years, despite having significant periods out of work, and often being ineligible for welfare support due to the assets test. This individual was able to demonstrate full compliance with taxation and social security rules and regulations throughout various audits that arose. Due to a limited education, health issues, eccentricity and other circumstances, this individual's income rarely exceeded the "poverty level/bread line". (This isn't just an urban legend - I happen to know this individual exceptionally well - and no this person hasn't inherited any wealth and didn't win any major lottery prizes either!).

Often times the aforesaid individual was accused by certain resentful persons of having "cheated" the system, solely on the basis of others incomprehension (and resentment) in having been "outdone".

Many people like to believe that they are superior by merit of intellect, education, health,business acumen, attitude or wisdom. Some unfortunately succumb to the temptation to (without first examining the facts) condemn anything or anyone that happens to achieve results which challenge one's personal illusion/s of superiority.

Having said all this, it does seem mysterious that we live in a society where it is legally possible for individuals to accumulate material wealth without having made a commensurate contribution (via work/business participation) to said wealth's production/generation.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Fascinating thread.
I know of a number of people whom (whilst not quite millionaires) have managed to accumulate sufficient wealth to be totally debt free with their house/s owned outright and 5 or 6 figures in the bank. So it can be achieved by some.

More than a few would achieve that level of wealth honestly, cynic. There are hundreds of thousands of Aussies in that basket, living comfortably without cheating anyone. For starters, most well paid professionals (doctor, lawyer, engineer) will do that. Plenty of small business owners as well.

The difference is in the high net worth dudes. Creating $100's of millions is hard to do without some scheming.

 

[trainspotter]

8 minutes of the Lizard of Oz at his finest. He famously told the nation in 1991 during the televised Senate inquiry into the media, only a fool paid more tax than he had to, and he didn't think politicians were spending his money so well that he wanted to contribute more.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Some people master the art of selling ones investments for more than they cost.

-------------------------------

Due to a limited education, health issues, eccentricity and other circumstances, this individual's income rarely exceeded the "poverty level/bread line". (This isn't just an urban legend - I happen to know this individual exceptionally well - and no this person hasn't inherited any wealth and didn't win any major lottery prizes either!).

One of those Aussie battler types that achieved his goal within his lifetime.

 

[ChaoSI]

wonderful thread.
I would also like to agree to this statement.

"honesty is the best policy" ... if you enjoy being fined...
got a parking ticket the other day... $86 for not displaying a ticket. now considering tickets are $7... of the over 15 times i've parked there this is the first fine... so i'm still up -.-
and yeah you could argue the monetary cost of the anxiety of knowing i parked in the wrong place but that doesn't really figure in does it.

morality as we know it is nothing more than a construct derived from an absolute sense of right and wrong, whereas in real life right and wrong aren't absolutes.

one motivation is a fear of what somebody else say was "god" or some kinda of divine justice.
but let's put it this way... if we knew for a fact that this was all there is and there was no divine justice, nobody to answer to for our lives, how many people would maintain their morals? if this is indeed all there is wouldn't we be motivated to make it as good for ourselves (and maybe our progeny) as possible?
In this instance we're really only answerable to ourselves, if we can go to sleep at night... if we can then.. why don't we do those things?

 

[Knobby22]

My experiance is that at if you live honestly you do well, are trusted and live a good life.
Generally right and good wins out long term.

Dishonest people need goods to celebrate the maney but are generally unhappy and people don't trust them. Trust is important.

 

[cynic]

Some people master the art of selling ones investments for more than they cost.

-------------------------------

One of those Aussie battler types that achieved his goal within his lifetime.

Yes - very perceptive. Careful investment in term deposits and real estate accompanied by the recent (first "Vendors" Grant stimulated) property boom were key factors in this Aussie battler's successes.

Although there are always additional goals to pursue once the original goals have been achieved.

I believe this individual is now trying to prove a point regarding the possibility of ethical wealth accumulation by striving to add a few more zeroes to the end of the portfolio/bank account balance.

 

[ChaoSI]

My experiance is that at if you live honestly you do well, are trusted and live a good life.
Generally right and good wins out long term.

Dishonest people need goods to celebrate the maney but are generally unhappy and people don't trust them. Trust is important.

we like to believe this.
i'm not saying that it's not true but the thing is.. those rich corrupt people are still relatively happy with their lives too in their own way

 

[wayneL]

My experiance is that at if you live honestly you do well, are trusted and live a good life.
Generally right and good wins out long term.

Dishonest people need goods to celebrate the maney but are generally unhappy and people don't trust them. Trust is important.

A nice thing to believe, but IME untrue. Dishonest people will hang **** on honest people and most ordinary folk do not have the wherewithal to discern fact from fiction.

Ref the story of the feather pillow; good people can end up with diabolical reputations.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

if we knew for a fact that this was all there is and there was no divine justice, nobody to answer to for our lives, how many people would maintain their morals?

There is another reason (beyond the threat of divine punishment), which I didn't mention earlier. I think most people would have a sense of there being a common link between all people. If you have a sense of being a 'member of the human race', the same way you might feel like a member of a family or sports club, then hurting others just doesn't enter your mind. You wouldn't steal from a family member, would you? Well, most people wouldn't.

 

[cynic]

There is another reason (beyond the threat of divine punishment), which I didn't mention earlier. I think most people would have a sense of there being a common link between all people. If you have a sense of being a 'member of the human race', the same way you might feel like a member of a family or sports club, then hurting others just doesn't enter your mind. You wouldn't steal from a family member, would you? Well, most people wouldn't.

You clearly haven't met my family!

 

[Gringotts Bank]

lol

 

[bandicoot76]

My experiance is that at if you live honestly you do well, are trusted and live a good life.
Generally right and good wins out long term.

Dishonest people need goods to celebrate the maney but are generally unhappy and people don't trust them. Trust is important.

AGREED 1000%! nice quote knobby!!

 

[Tyler Durden]

Another example I have thought of is people who take fake sickies. Their work must then be done by those honest enough not to take fake sickies, yet both get paid the same. Well, actually, the dishonest one gets paid more, because they are being paid for doing nothing for that day.

And then it's a double whammy if the work that has to be re-allocated is mistake-prone, because then the person too honest to take fake sickies gets stuck with the errors!!!

 

[Julia]

My experiance is that at if you live honestly you do well, are trusted and live a good life.
Generally right and good wins out long term.

Dishonest people need goods to celebrate the maney but are generally unhappy and people don't trust them. Trust is important.

Agree, Knobby. And with that trust comes the essential sense of self respect.

Is self respect a characteristic simply unimportant to some people? I'd have thought most of us need the good opinions of others to reinforce our own feeling of "OK-ness" but perhaps I'm quite out of step on this?

There is another reason (beyond the threat of divine punishment), which I didn't mention earlier. I think most people would have a sense of there being a common link between all people. If you have a sense of being a 'member of the human race', the same way you might feel like a member of a family or sports club, then hurting others just doesn't enter your mind. You wouldn't steal from a family member, would you? Well, most people wouldn't.

Agreed, GB. But is our sense of community and the common good now so diminished that we simply don't care what others think about us?