Flood Levy - Do you agree?

[zzaaxxss3401]

and for the latest figures on national debt ..

http://www.debtclock.com.au/index.html

It appears you are correct, Australia doesnt have a dollar to its name ... just a lot of debt.

I love how Tasmania is ticking down at $3 every 5 seconds - every other state is whizzing down! And no, I'm not picking on our Tasmanian relatives.

It's not entirely correct though - I just paid off my credit card bill (it is due at the end of the month).

 

[noco]

Senator Cory Bernadi has a message for the people of Australia with a petition to stop the levy.

http://www.stopthelevy.com/

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

I love how Tasmania is ticking down at $3 every 5 seconds - every other state is whizzing down! And no, I'm not picking on our Tasmanian relatives.

It's not entirely correct though - I just paid off my credit card bill (it is due at the end of the month).

Thanks zz for reminding me, I must go online and pay mine.

Why can't the ole Jools let the people sort this out, go into budget deficit for a few years and we come out stronger at the end.

And get rid of the bloody NBN.

gg

 

[RandR]

Senator Cory Bernadi has a message for the people of Australia with a petition to stop the levy.

http://www.stopthelevy.com/

actually, that link has the following information ...

Stop The Levy is a project of Menzies House, a grassroots, independent online community for thinkers, writers and activists. We are not affiliated with any political party.

I cant see any message from Senator Cory Bernardi ... do you think the dear Senator is bandwagoning on what appears to be a popular cause ?

 

[noco]

actually, that link has the following information ...

Stop The Levy is a project of Menzies House, a grassroots, independent online community for thinkers, writers and activists. We are not affiliated with any political party.

I cant see any message from Senator Cory Bernardi ... do you think the dear Senator is bandwagoning on what appears to be a popular cause ?

So what?

 

[Smurf1976]

Its fascinating watching the anti political, anti tax, anti Labor, anti.......well basically anything giving attitudes in the thread.

The excuse list for not paying a miserable minor amount of money is really funny the repairs to infrastructure will directly affect the economy and the well being of all Australians.

The RBA governor whats his name said the government should borrow the dough which of course is correct it has the least effect on the balances affects the economy and is more predictable.

Of course with the Wreak-er in full cry like his disciples here that's politically impossible.

Personally I think a levy and keeping the budget to a surplus 12/13 is the way to go the world is a dangerous place and we should pay as we go.

And before the hanging posse turns up screaming stimulus waste blah blah it was borrowings repeat borrowings not normal revenue for gods sake there is no pot of gold it went to the middle class welfare.

The money has to come from borrowings or tax there is no frigging money tree this would apply to any government at any time should an amount of money on this scale be required for fixing infrastructure resulting from one of the biggest natural disasters in Australia's white history.

To QLD-ers apologies for the mean spirited anti Australian attitudes expressed on the thread the aggressive nastiness dished out to Nokia and the absence of any support from others was / is particularly shame full (you mostly all failed this simple test) and really sums up many here.

None of which changes the fact that we have already paid more than enough to cover this which was simply wasted on school halls we didn't need, faulty insulation and so on.

It is not about anyone not wanting to help people in Queensland. It is about a government having wasted a fortune of our taxes now wanting more money the moment a problem which they should have saved for arises. If it wasn't a flood in Qld then it would have been a fire in Vic or whatever. Sooner or later, something is sure to go wrong and any sensible person knows that.

It is comparable to someone who spends everything they earn and more, who then wants a bail out as soon as the car breaks down. Why not put some money aside each week like any sensible person does?

 

[Julia]

EDIT: IFocus selectively quoting Michael Pascoe, why don't you link the article so readers can make up their own minds and read the links that Michael has provided to Jessica Irvines article?
http://www.smh.com.au/business/gillards-weak-politics-let-canards-fly-20110128-1a7g5.html
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...e-come-hell-or-high-water-20110127-1a6s4.html

Thanks for the links, sinner. IFocus, you could just as easily have quoted the following from Michael Pascoe's piece:

There is real damage though in the opportunity cost – the government's failure (again) to deal honestly with the population, to put in the hard kilometres necessary to progress the nation's economic understanding against the headwinds of its own populism and the opposition's mindless obfuscation. In a worst-case scenario, you have to begin to wonder if Wayne and Julia simply don't know any better. It's a worry.

First and foremost is the government's ineptitude in continuing to worship at the altar of the surplus cult, of endorsing the economics-by-slogan mindlessness of Hockey and Abbott, of letting the all-deficits-are-evil canard fly. In the context of the federal election, Swan might have thought he was being clever by occupying the sloganeering high ground through promising an early end to the reasonable and not-all-that-big deficit. It was certainly easier than building the credibility to cut through the anti-Labor cheer squad.

Now, that tactic is just plain dumb, a straitjacket of the government's own making if ever decision must be viewed through the prism of surplus worship.

Sadly, though, you wouldn't be up for drawing attention to anything which in any way derides your government. Can't help wondering if you are really too obtuse to see what a disaster they are, or whether pride just won't allow you to admit you've backed a losing horse.

To me, if a cyclone, fire or flood directly affects my family or town I would give freely but the further away emotionally or geographically these events happen then I feel less affinity to those "experiencing" them.

Does that make sense.

Sadly, yes, it does make sense. Amongst the floods here I was aware of the events in Brazil which were much worse. I briefly thought "oh, how awful" and switched off.

Senator Cory Bernadi has a message for the people of Australia with a petition to stop the levy.

http://www.stopthelevy.com/

Hah, noco, Senator Bernadi may not need to worry. With the massive public opposition, the Greens' fury with the elimination of the various Green initiatives, the opposition's implacable determination to vote against the levy, and now the resistance from Bob Katter and Tony Windsor, it's hard to see that the bill will get through.

 

[Smurf1976]

I love how Tasmania is ticking down at $3 every 5 seconds - every other state is whizzing down! And no, I'm not picking on our Tasmanian relatives.

On closer inspection...

Queensland and Tasmania are the only states where the debt is going DOWN. Tas might only be going down rather slowly, but at least it is going down (though I have doubts this is really the case, but anyway that's what the figures say).

Meanwhile NSW, Vic, SA, WA and ACT are all going UP.

NSW - $1486 per person and rising. NSW has already privatised many key assets and is selling more.

Qld - $2460 per person but at least it is falling. But then they are selling assets and have just been flooded.

Vic - $1726 per person and rising. With so much already sold off, the state has very litte in terms of physical assets that could be sold to raise cash.

WA - $1426 per person and rising. But at least they've still got some public assets.

SA - $1135 per person and rising. Like Victoria, they've got little left to sell.

NT - $4342 per person and rising. They never did have much that could be sold.

ACT - $1276 and rising. Not sure what they've got in terms of assets.

Tas - $932 and falling. And the state still has most of its public assets in state ownership.

There doesn't seem to be much of a trend that can be drawn from all of that, other than perhaps to say that there is a correlation between higher debt per person and faster economic growth over recent years. The two states with the lowest debts are clear economic under-performers over the longer term.

Public debt boosts the economy? Seems the only real conclusion that can be made from those figures.

 

[drsmith]

Oversight on my part about the link

I thought the whole lot was very good as it covered all the points from most angles.........still baffled about the squealing.

Fact is the levy approach is conservative.


Any way need to start talking about the second levy.............LOLROTF


.

We can't have a super-duper La-Nina plus without the Lake Eyre fill-her-upperer.

 

[Calliope]

The elephant in the room is the Qld coal industry, which has taken a massive hit from the floods. The Qld economy is dependent on coal exports, and so is Australia's to a large extent. It would make economic sense to pour taxpayers money into getting the coal exports back to normal.

This can't happen because it would enrage the Greens who blame the coal industry for the floods.

 

[drsmith]

The economic visionaries that are the Greens are against a coal industry full stop.

They're not too keen on iron ore either, judging by the extent to which they want to tax it.

 

[Wysiwyg]

This can't happen because it would enrage the Greens who blame the coal industry for the floods.

Believe me there is greater demand for coal from overseas than ever before. The Aust. government now have to play a juggling act between meeting carbon emissions control responsibility and hefty tax income from coal extractors and the large employment base both direct and indirect. Jobs is money is jobs. It's a vicious circle.

Light and heat???

 

[IFocus]

We can't have a super-duper La-Nina plus without the Lake Eyre fill-her-upperer.

Levy 3? would be nice to get some rain

.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

I saw Tony Windsor and a fly being interviewed on the 730 Report last night and for once the fly made less sense than poor ole Tony.

He is against a one off knee jerk reaction and seeks a permanent Disaster Fund. He further pointed out that revenue from the levy tax would not land in Treasury coffers for another 18 months. So he argued that a deficit strategy may be worthwhile considering.

gg

 

[IFocus]

There are arguments for and against the levy, myself, i think taxpayer money (our money) that is currently being used on other projects can be redirected for the rebuilding effort. I think rebalancing the budget for the flood rebuilding can surely be done without missing too much. For example: Maybe the military will just have to do without the F35's for awhile ........ what a pity that would be

The non levy portion contains delays to infrastructure projects already ironically some of those will affect WA the place that currently picks up the bills for all the eastern states free loaders / welfare recipients.

The reality is the tax payer will pay for the repairs to QLD and other states infrastructure levy or no levy and in QLD case is required to start sooner rather than later.

So the question of the levy is mostly political / emotional.

Fact is I doubt Gillard will get it through the lower house so it will come from further cut backs and it will impact no doubt those who can least afford the hit unlike the levy.

Given that the $5 plus bil is an treasury estimate you would have to assume that the eventual cost will be more as is generally the case and that's not a government thing its just engineering reality.

And while I am here

The waste thing that keeps coming up is interesting in that the stimulus was handled by a set of bureaucrats not suited to the task for a whole bunch of reasons and yes that's the labor governments responsibility haste = waste.

Rebuilding the states infrastructure is different in that it will mostly be handled by departments all ready in place that do that sort of work and have decades of experience although they will be under pressure.

I am surprised that this is not realized but then if you want to be political then it wont be the out come being delays to the lives of the good people of QLD.

 

[DB008]

I saw Tony Windsor and a fly being interviewed on the 730 Report last night and for once the fly made less sense than poor ole Tony.

He is against a one off knee jerk reaction and seeks a permanent Disaster Fund. He further pointed out that revenue from the levy tax would not land in Treasury coffers for another 18 months. So he argued that a deficit strategy may be worthwhile considering.

gg

I agree with a disaster fund. Everyone who pays tax, pays something in the order of 50 cents per week. Done. People who whinge at that, tough luck, bugger off to another country!

 

[IFocus]

Thanks for the links, sinner. IFocus, you could just as easily have quoted the following from Michael Pascoe's piece:

Sadly, though, you wouldn't be up for drawing attention to anything which in any way derides your government. Can't help wondering if you are really too obtuse to see what a disaster they are, or whether pride just won't allow you to admit you've backed a losing horse.

Alright I am the leader of a left wing conspiracy and my mission is the conversion of the entire ASF forum to becoming sleeper agents for the eventual take over of..........

The article was negative about the government but contained points from all directions which you all seemed to have missed.

But then

The frigging headline I posted was wait a moment negative about the government ( made it bold this time you may have missed it)

Then the second paragraph I posted is shock horror negative about the government ( made it bold this time you may have missed it also)

Have to go the secret phone is ringing my Russian controller may have read this thread..........I could be in trouble.........

The baffling goes on

Michael Pascoe has a good summery

"Gillard's weak politics let canards fly "

On one hand, the levy itself is painted by some as an economic disaster – by implication, middle-and-above Australians must still “be doing it tough”. On the other, it raises so little in the general scheme of revenue, you might wonder what the screaming is about.

Gillard needs to start kicking heads

This damage though is only political and self-inflicted, Julia Gillard shooting the government in the foot through weak politics when presented with an opportunity to be strong. Contrary to some of the scare mongering, it's hard to find any other victim.

 

[sails]

Wow, has power gone to her head? It seems she learnt nothing of voter disgust at the gang of four.

The reality is that she is an unelected PM who was only finally put in place by a couple of independents and has no mandate for anything let alone deciding on taxes in defiance of her own party, IMO.

More here: Labor MPs revolt over Julia Gillard's flood tax levy

... senior Labor figures were shaking their heads at the lack of consultation with Cabinet.

 

[IFocus]

Interesting this is a trading site yet this seemed to have been missed


"Financial markets applaud Gillard’s flood package"

For the last few years every man and their dog, including the Opposition and a Reserve Bank board member, have called on this government to tighten its fiscal belt given the original stimulus was sized for a recession that never materialised.

So the Prime Minister prudently does exactly this. Instead of allowing the deficit to blow-out, which was what most economists expected, she surprised by funding two-thirds of the Commonwealth’s $5.6 billion tab via spending cuts or deferrals, and the remainder through a tiny, once-off levy on higher-income earners unaffected by the floods. She also liberated stretched labour supply by expediting the processing of 457 visas and doubling the number of places in the job seeker relocation program. This all sounds like sensible stuff.

The response of financial markets was emphatic: the probability of future interest rate hikes was instantly cut. Investors with real cash in the money markets decided that the government’s package was anti-inflationary, and would relieve some of the monetary policy burden on the Reserve Bank.

Spot the west aussie in the comments section

WAlian :

28 Jan 2011 11:13:28pm

Proud of my WA Premier he came out and supported generosity of spirit, and economic good sense rather that running with the herd.
Fantasic when the volunteers came out right when needed, as no government could have done what they did. Great that we all donated $ to charities and the Premier's fund, so that money can go straight to people who need it. And great we have an Aust Gov't to assist States with roads, bridges and I dont mind in the least paying via my taxes to get the Eastern States up and running OK.

Shocked at the nasty mean manipulative political stance Tony Abbott is taking. I vote Liberal, but I don't want that type of Liberal thanks.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/43308.html#m617796

Maybe Mike Calton is right

Whinger! Salute to another great Australian trait

One of our grand national delusions is that we are a stoic people, unflinching in the jaws of hardship and disaster, unique in all the world. Knock us down and we dig into bottomless reserves of character to dust ourselves off and get back at it. Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, Oi Oi Oi.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/socie...er-great-australian-trait-20110128-1a8an.html

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Interesting this is a trading site yet this seemed to have been missed


"Financial markets applaud Gillard’s flood package"

ASF is a Trading Site, mate, not a Financial Markets' site.

It always interests me when Big Capital and the Lost Left get in to bed with one another IF.

Usually the workers miss out, labourers, artisans, traders, teachers and other working professionals.

I dare say Financial Planners would probably agree with both you, IFocus, and the Financial Markets.

gg