Queensland Floods

[ghotib]

Good wishes and good luck to ALSers in the flood areas.

In 1974 I was working on a property just below Copeton Dam in northern NSW. Those floods filled the dam for the first time, and then went on to become part of a huge inland flood on the Darling/Murray system. One of my jobs was to drive down to the river gauge and then phone the height through to the bureau. We were cut off from towns for a while but we knew we were safe. The water flow was still awesome. So was the stink when the water finally went down, and that was on rural land.

Stay calm and take care folks.

Ghoti

 

[Tink]

Very sad, I feel for all up there.

Does remind me very much of the Vic fires, every morning was more devastation.

Thoughts are with you all, stay safe

 

[Knobby22]

Last night on the ABC a reporter said it was now officially the worst floods ever.
Brisbane would have been flooded if they hadn't put the dam in after the last one to protect the City. The dam is full now so they really need the rain to stop.

Believe Towoomba sits within the dividing range so water readily runs off (not in a flood plain) but the intense rain (mini tsunumi) caused a flash flood which no one could have expected.
Maybe 20 dead in the surrounding area including little children. Absolutely terrible.

Victoria Bureau of Meterology is now expecting flash floods out west in the semi arid areas!

What is going on with the weather??

 

[Calliope]

Last night on the ABC a reporter said it was now officially the worst floods ever.
Brisbane would have been flooded if they hadn't put the dam in after the last one to protect the City. The dam is full now so they really need the rain to stop.

The people of Queensland can thank Bjelke-Petersen for his foresight in dam building. Under a Labor government it would never happen. Jo did not worry about the greenies and the NIMBYs.

Considerable development of the state's infrastructure took place during the Bjelke-Petersen era. He was a leading proponent of Wivenhoe and Burdekin Dams, encouraging the modernising and electrifying of the Queensland railway system, and the construction of the Gateway Bridge. Airports, coal mines, power stations, and dams were built throughout the state. James Cook University was established. In Brisbane, the Queensland Cultural Centre, Griffith University, the South East Freeway, and the Captain Cook, Gateway and Merivale bridges were all constructed, as well as the Parliamentary Annexe that was attached to Queensland Parliament House. Bjelke-Petersen was one of the instigators of World Expo 88 (now South Bank Parklands]) and the 1982 Brisbane Commonwealth Games.

(Wikipedia)

 

[Knobby22]

The people of Queensland can thank Bjelke-Petersen for his foresight in dam building. Under a Labor government it would never happen. Jo did not worry about the greenies and the NIMBYs.

(Wikipedia)

Jo did a great job for Queensland but I don't think you can say Labor would never have built it. They did build the Snowy Mountain scheme under Chifley etc. The times were different.

“The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.”
Leslie Poles Hartley quotes (English Writer, 1895-1972)

 

[awg]

I hear they are saying their is a dam saving Brisbane from being flooded, which is good

With regard to preventing large scale flooding in general, there is only very limited options, from what I have been hearing, it is not possible to build dams with large enough volume to restrain the volume discharge..ie Rockhampton x times Sydney harbour each day.

In the situation where there are options to build dams, it means subsuming vast areas of prime land. ( if they are to be of use in flood control)

The "expert" on ABC radio today was utterly scathing of excessive dam building proposals, he said they absolutely cannot work in the instance of a flood such as the one in QLD.

 

[sails]

...What is going on with the weather??

A wake up call of the cyclic nature of weather patterns? If more dams had been built after the last major floods, perhaps this would have been a different story.

Peter Garrett stopped the Traverston dam. That probably wouldn't have been finished in time for these floods, but would possibly have saved some of the grief. Any thoughts?

Apparently Wivenhoe dam has prevented major flooding in some parts of Brisbane so far, but even it can only hold so much. Tense time for those in it's pathway.

Sincere sympathies to those affected. It is gut wrenching to watch the media coverage and having been through some minor flooding on a few occasions, it is unbelievable how much damage stinky water and mud can do.

 

[Knobby22]

Peter Garrett stopped the Traverston dam. That probably wouldn't have been finished in time for these floods, but would possibly have saved some of the grief. Any thoughts?

.

After attacks from Warren Truss, leader of the Nationals who didn't want the dam built.
As I said times are different.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/11/2739725.htm

 

[sails]

...The "expert" on ABC radio today was utterly scathing of excessive dam building proposals, he said they absolutely cannot work in the instance of a flood such as the one in QLD.

Hmmm, I wonder if he is just a text book "expert" who has never gone through a flood that may have been preventable with a dam.

I agree that dams won't protect everybody, but they do help. Without Wivenhoe, they are saying Brisbane would be a repeat (if not worse) than the devastating 1974 floods. I don't see how anyone can say well positioned dams are totally useless.

 

[Wysiwyg]

You don't build dams to protect people in the rare instances of flooding. Dry rivers & tributaries during the (most of the time) drier periods will be the result. Man trying to control nature comes back to bite!

 

[sails]

After attacks from Warren Truss, leader of the Nationals who didn't want the dam built.
As I said times are different.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/11/2739725.htm

Thanks Knobby. It was finally Garrett's call though. In the excerpt from the article you posted above, Garrett based his decision on preserving wildlife and nothing to do with Truss's views.

"I have based my proposed decision on the science presented to me, and the science shows that this project would have serious and irreversible effects on nationally listed species such as the Australian lungfish, the Mary River turtle and the Mary River cod," Mr Garrett said.

Building dams is often an unpopular decision at the time. However, those whose lives have been spared ravaging flood waters by the dams would possibly far out number the few that were initially affected. It would be politically a tough thing to do - that is until the floods come.

 

[joea]

Hi.
I think Anna Bligh is showing a responsible forte of leadership in responding to the QLD. flood issues.
These are very trying times and she has responded well.

Cheers

 

[derty]

Peter Garrett stopped the Traverston dam. That probably wouldn't have been finished in time for these floods, but would possibly have saved some of the grief. Any thoughts?

The proposed Traverston Dam had a planned capacity of 153GL, it would have been full prior to this event as almost all of the dams in the SE QLD catchment are already full. The Wivenhoe dams stated capacity is about 1000GL and it is currently at 2000GL, which is probably close to the limits of it's flood mitigation capacity. So if the Traverston Dam had been built it would have been like it wasn't there yesterday.

FYI: the flow rates of rivers is commonly expressed in multiples of Sydney Harbour. 1 Sydney Harbour = ~500GL. The Fitzroy flow rate when Rocky was flooding was around 1.5 Sydney Harbours per day = 750GL/day. That would have fillled an empty Traverston Dam in about 5 hours and a bone dry Wivenhoe Dam to it's current level in about 2.6 days.

 

[sails]

Hi.
I think Anna Bligh is showing a responsible forte of leadership in responding to the QLD. flood issues.
These are very trying times and she has responded well.

Cheers

I agree Joea. She is showing genuine compassion which wasn't quite so evident in the early stages. She seems to be stepping up to the plate in dealing with a horrific disaster of massive proportions - not an easy task by any means.

 

[sails]

The proposed Traverston Dam had a planned capacity of 153GL, it would have been full prior to this event as almost all of the dams in the SE QLD catchment are already full. The Wivenhoe dams stated capacity is about 1000GL and it is currently at 2000GL, which is probably close to the limits of it's flood mitigation capacity. So if the Traverston Dam had been built it would have been like it wasn't there yesterday.

FYI: the flow rates of rivers is commonly expressed in multiples of Sydney Harbour. 1 Sydney Harbour = ~500GL. The Fitzroy flow rate when Rocky was flooding was around 1.5 Sydney Harbours per day = 750GL/day. That would have fillled an empty Traverston Dam in about 5 hours and a bone dry Wivenhoe Dam to it's current level in about 2.6 days.

Thanks for the technicals, Derty...

I agree that the amount of water coming down from the sky is more like a river than rain. We are talking bizarre weather conditons for sure.

 

[Calliope]

We ain't seen nuthin yet.

RAIN, rain, rain – the Sunshine Coast has seen a lot of it in the past few weeks, and with more expected during the coming months there are fears of a repeat of the record-breaking floods and rainfall of 1893.

Over 24 hours on Sunday and yesterday Peachester had 298mm of rain, its wettest January day since 1974.

But that's nothing compared to 1893, when in 24 hours 907mm was recorded at Crohamhurst.

The epic 1893 floods were a result of extreme rainfall combined with three tropical cyclones which converged on South-East Queensland. The Coast recorded 1715mm in three days, the highest three-day rainfall recorded in Australia.

Long-range forecaster Hayden Walker said we could expect more heavy rain and higher than average cyclone activity in the coming months.

http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/story/2011/01/11/cylones-on-way-too-says-walker/

Peachester and Crohamhurst are at the headwaters of the Stanley which feeds into the Brisbane below the Somerset Dam and then into the Wivenhoe Dam.

 

[Whiskers]

You don't build dams to protect people in the rare instances of flooding. Dry rivers & tributaries during the (most of the time) drier periods will be the result. Man trying to control nature comes back to bite!

I totally agree, Wysiwyg.

There are numerous consequences for the local ecosystems when a large dam is built. The most obvious example of which we already suffer supply deficiencies is Fish. Many fish and marine life need to navigate from the upper reaches to the sea in their breeding and life cycle. Also, it's often not enough to just release a steady trickle downstream for the enviornment.

The weather works in cycles for a reason and many humans fail to grasp that and adjust their circumstances accordingly, especially in the government planning agencies, such as allowing too much urban development in known flood planes without the equal amount of risk management protocols, such as emergency evacuation systems. The SES is just so unresoursed.

Too often the local damage is amplified by development, such as sealing large areas with bitumen and concrete and not allowing sufficient additional runoff resources for water that would ordinarily soak into the ground.

Then we have meddled with the watercourses usually restricting their capacity with concrete channels and pipes.

But probably the biggest problem is over clearing vegetation from flood plains. This allows the water flow to acelerate in the upper reaches of river systems and arrive at densly populated towns and cities down stream on the coast a bit quicker... then slow down and back up as it strikes development in the flood plain, such as bridges, reclaimed swamp land used for warfs and industrial facilities and general urban and business buildings on the flood plain.

I doubt the Traverston dam would totally mitigate Gympie and Maryborough on the Mary River from flood damage any more than the Wivenhoe dam will totally mitigate Brisbane form flood damage. Wivenhoe has been frantically releasing water for some weeks to try to avoid overflowing the spillway which could happen very soon with another decent rain event. Then the 'Flood Mitigation' effect will be worthless and the damage potentially worse if town planning lowered the 'flood' level for development purposes.

The proposed Traverston Dam had a planned capacity of 153GL, it would have been full prior to this event as almost all of the dams in the SE QLD catchment are already full. The Wivenhoe dams stated capacity is about 1000GL and it is currently at 2000GL, which is probably close to the limits of it's flood mitigation capacity. So if the Traverston Dam had been built it would have been like it wasn't there yesterday.

FYI: the flow rates of rivers is commonly expressed in multiples of Sydney Harbour. 1 Sydney Harbour = ~500GL. The Fitzroy flow rate when Rocky was flooding was around 1.5 Sydney Harbours per day = 750GL/day. That would have fillled an empty Traverston Dam in about 5 hours and a bone dry Wivenhoe Dam to it's current level in about 2.6 days.

PS:Thanks derty, I see you have done the technical stuff derty for my arguement.

That easy to remember ratio and conjunction with local flow rates is worth repeating to permanently imprent in our psysic for consideration of our next elected officials and their development and planning policies.

 

[Julia]

Hi.
I think Anna Bligh is showing a responsible forte of leadership in responding to the QLD. flood issues.
These are very trying times and she has responded well.

Cheers

I agree. And so have various mayors of flooded centres.
Even the Prime Minister in her speech today sounded genuinely affected by the horror of the loss of life. I don't know who wrote the speech, but it was well done in content and delivery.

For once her slow enunciation seemed appropriate.

 

[Julia]

In case it all gets worse again in this area I thought I'd find out where the evacuation centres will be for this town of 53,000 people.

Unbelievably, there is NO PLAN for any such centre. Nothing. Zilch.

Have been blithely informed that people are expected to make their own arrangements.

Well, how good is that! A significant proportion of the population are quite elderly, many won't have cars. Some of the nursing homes are on very low lying land.
Where would these people go? I just can't believe they can be so negligent.

Might give the media a call.

 

[Wysiwyg]

The weather works in cycles for a reason and many humans fail to grasp that and adjust their circumstances accordingly, especially in the government planning agencies, such as allowing too much urban development in known flood planes without the equal amount of risk management protocols, such as emergency evacuation systems.

That is exactly how I feel. Most of us have life experiences considered both subjectively good or bad. Strangely, people think they are above nature.

I wonder what others think of helping out with donations in this particular situation? Let people have their life experiences or assist with donations from a compassionate viewpoint?

My general view is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.