Overseas Students - I am staggered

[lazyfish]

How many units is there to a basic degree these days ?

At Flinders Uni in the mid-late 80's, 36 units constituted a year's undergraduate study and 108 units a degree.

I guess every uni's a bit different. Here 4 units would give you 100 credits which is full load for 1 semester. The degree is 3-4 years depending on whether you do honours or not. So 24 units for a degree at a minimum.

 

[bellenuit]

If there weren't any foreign students, then many courses would not be available to Australian students as there wouldn't be enough students to make it viable to run some courses.

You will always have overcrowding as that is a function of the resources made available compared to the resources required. Governments always reduce funding until breaking point is reached. Health, police and defence forces are all run the same way.

Since the US, UK and Canada are also trying to attract foreign students, it must be viewed as a good thing overall for the economy.

So long as it is not at the expense of local students, then I am all for it.

There are also positive side effects, like improved understanding between us and our neighbours (though the Indian student issues may be negative at the moment). Should foreign students stay on following completion of their degrees, there is the added benefit of obtaining highly qualified workers at no expense to Australia.

 

[lazyfish]

"think " isnt what im after

after all its not like a normal holiday visa etc etc .these students are here years, so maybe they are entitled on a certain visa they are issued to stay here for a prolonged length of time ......

would be intresting to know the facts

Well put it this way I am a migrant myself and I migrated through a masters' degree in computing about 6 years ago. I am not aware of any financial assistance whatsoever provided to international student.

 

[Macquack]

More like they are subsidising the aussie students if anything.

Isn't that the idea of full fee paying foreign students?

Truth probably comes closer to 'lining the uni's pockets'

You give the impression that universities turn a profit. Do they?

 

[nunthewiser]

ok i did 9 minutes of research and it seems they are eligble after all . i may be wrong but thats my take from the following paragraphs

this is from the austudy website

3.2.1 Australian citizenship or permanent residency
To be eligible for assistance a student must live in Australia during the period of study (see 3.2.3) and be either:
an Australian citizen
an Australian permanent resident within the meaning of regulation 1.03 of the Migration Regulations 1994

this is from the migration regulations 1994

Australian permanent resident" means:

(a) in relation to an applicant for a Return (Residence) (Class BB) visa or a Resident Return (Temporary) (Class TP) visa -

 

[nunthewiser]

So ......... if the previous post is correct and the overseas students are taking in austudy and other benefits ... is it still such a viable idea to fill our learning centres with overseas students who may be taking valuable room that home grown students could of had instead but will not get because some overseas bugga is paying the uni more money than they do

yes the uni,s love them as they not having to pay the bill for austudy etc .WE as taxpayers are

i find the whole situation a crock of crap actually and a lil annoyed i bothered to take the time to look for myself as now dirty on the fact im paying the way for some other bunch of freeloading buggers

please someone show me i am wrong in regards to austudy etc

 

[skyQuake]

ok i did 9 minutes of research and it seems they are eligble after all . i may be wrong but thats my take from the following paragraphs

this is from the austudy website



this is from the migration regulations 1994

They are here on a student visa and are not permanent residents. Thus, they are not eligible for benefits (not even the student discount concession card)

Isn't that the idea of full fee paying foreign students?



You give the impression that universities turn a profit. Do they?

Macq, one of the arguably more 'international' universities, generated a profit of around 5 mil in 08.
Most unis however are careful to balance their books as to not raise scrutiny.

 

[lazyfish]

So ......... if the previous post is correct and the overseas students are taking in austudy and other benefits ... is it still such a viable idea to fill our learning centres with overseas students who may be taking valuable room that home grown students could of had instead but will not get because some overseas bugga is paying the uni more money than they do

yes the uni,s love them as they not having to pay the bill for austudy etc .WE as taxpayers are

i find the whole situation a crock of crap actually and a lil annoyed i bothered to take the time to look for myself as now dirty on the fact im paying the way for some other bunch of freeloading buggers

please someone show me i am wrong in regards to austudy etc

Ok you were wrong. You only get a resident return visa after you becoming a permanent resident. A student will only be holding a student visa.

 

[white_goodman]

im getting $250 Friday for a photographer to to get some shots of my granny flat as an example of student living... yewww!

 

[nunthewiser]

thanks guys

now i can sleep easier

 

[alter1217]

So ......... if the previous post is correct and the overseas students are taking in austudy and other benefits ... is it still such a viable idea to fill our learning centres with overseas students who may be taking valuable room that home grown students could of had instead but will not get because some overseas bugga is paying the uni more money than they do

yes the uni,s love them as they not having to pay the bill for austudy etc .WE as taxpayers are

i find the whole situation a crock of crap actually and a lil annoyed i bothered to take the time to look for myself as now dirty on the fact im paying the way for some other bunch of freeloading buggers

please someone show me i am wrong in regards to austudy etc

They don't get any of those benefits until they become permanent residents. They can only become permanent residents if they fit the list of "wanted professionals" after they graduate. I've lots of friends who're international students, and sometimes I feel sorry they don't get concession. $50 a week for a train travel pass... (Okay I'm starting to feel sorry for full time workers who catches trains too.) One of my friend's parents had to take out a mortgage to send them here to study... but yeah, most of them are loaded.

I love the education system here =) 7k a year won't get you to a decent university even in china. Also, its all in free debt. (interest rate indexed to inflation).

I don't get any other government benefits, however, because my parents fail every means test... and they're too stingy to give me any pocket money. gahh....

 

[theasxgorilla]

so what...we shouldn't be selling our degrees in this way at any price!!!! 560000 students...my god, that is the size of Hobart...and its happening very quietly...if Australians truly knew, they would be up in arms about this

You are aware that we're in the Information Age now?

I met my current girlfriend this way. She took me all the way to the other side of the world, together with my degree and three of hers. Geez, that backfired didn't it! Oh no wait a minute... she also paid full fees, took her student loan liability with her and I invest all my savings and 10 years of super contributions into the ASX.

I think the issue is more complex than you are suggesting WB.

PS. No-one gets any benefits as an international student. You pay your way, that's why having them here is so lucrative. The number of hours they can legally work is also limited, meaning that the funding for their fees generally speaking has to come from abroad.

PPS. What better way to attract quality immigrants?

PPPS. This is not a 2009 issue so you haven't discovered anything new, reputable universities around the world have been trying to attract full-fee paying students for decades.

 

[zzaaxxss3401]

I am staggered that our education system, designed for educating young australians, is being turned into a degree factory to pump out degrees for foreigners in this country...

Doesn't this prove that Australia has a world-class education system? If overseas students are able to fund to come to uni, either through their parent's or their own hard work, then good on them. Only 1% of the population goes to University!!! That makes Australia very lucky in the fact that over 30% of our 18-25 year olds alone attend some form of post-schooling.

The problem lies in our Governments not backing our inventions or supporting the "little guy". We sell a lot of our IP overseas, simply to be bought back as an import. Next time you buy something it will most likely have "Made in China" or "Made in PRC". There was a lot of uproar a few months ago, when Pacific Dunlop moved it's manufacturing overseas... but what did the Government do... nothing. We now buy the Bonds brand (an Australian icon) from overseas.

One company that has done it tough, and decided to buck the trend is Zip Industries. The good old hot water urn in many office kitchens. They recently announced a contract to sell to the Chinese.

In the country, they are finding it harder and harder to find doctors to staff their hospitals. It is the highly educated new migrants (from all over the world) that choose to live in the regional areas of this country. Sure, they can be better paid in the cities, but they are asked to work where they are needed, so they do. And I thank them for that.

Here's the thing, if the Government doesn't encourage overseas students to acquire an education in our very lucky, clean, opportunity filled, non-racist (I hope I can still say this with conviction) country of ours, they they have three options:
1. Let the Universities shut down that can't afford to operate - local families suffer, because their children have to relocate to an open university.
2. Increase the fees - fair is fair isn't it, just like our overseas students.
3. Prop them up with even more tax payer's money.

What do you suggest suffers? None of them have favourable outcomes... particularly #3 if you live in a city - less funding for your wide open (usually congested) freeways, tunnels, hospitals, public transport (can it get any worse?).

Work hard, invest your money, find a loving partner, have a family, cash-in your investments to pay for your children's education to give them a chance, and start enjoying life! You're a crazed gold-prospector looking for a reef that doesn't exist!

Perhaps the only reason you're worried about the number of overseas students living and working here, is because they work harder than you or your children ever will. Good on them, I say.

 

[qldfrog]

more cynical:
I am a migrant and came here 15y ago in a very strict regulation: 3y waiting list , country quoto (and I come from western europe) and 5 y university degree.
Now, rules have changed and very significantly in the last month of Johnny so we can not blame Rudd on that

this 500 000 "students" are not all and by far your uni students you are talking about:
by enrolling in a tafe for a pseudo degree in cooking or other similar rubbishes, against a $20k or so, you get a visa, the right to work as taxi driver or other casual jobs and get automatic residency at the end of your studies

In short, you buy australian citizenship and the money does not even go to the government.
The word spread quickly and this is a backdoor yet legal bypass to the eldorado.I am actually surprised anyone is still trying to come here in a leaking boat!!!
Year and years of future problems IMHO but Rudd is happy: it keeps the house price bubble high!!

 

[zzaaxxss3401]

doctorj - I'm totally with you on this one (re: Page 1 post).

I'm sometimes frustrated that we don't live closer to Asia and are taught a language in high-school / university. Education in Europe allows you to have day-trips to practise your French, German, Spanish or Italian. I have a mate learning Hindi so that he can interact with at least 1/3 of the Indians when he visits for work discussions.

English is only #3 (per population) after mandarin and spanish - one advantage Mr Rudd has when visiting any Chinese steel mills. Opportunities are at our doorstep, but we're too lazy to make the effort... so we freak out!

 

[theasxgorilla]

The problem lies in our Governments not backing our inventions or supporting the "little guy". We sell a lot of our IP overseas, simply to be bought back as an import. Next time you buy something it will most likely have "Made in China" or "Made in PRC". There was a lot of uproar a few months ago, when Pacific Dunlop moved it's manufacturing overseas... but what did the Government do... nothing. We now buy the Bonds brand (an Australian icon) from overseas.

You are correct that this is a problem, but the way you describe it manifesting is hardly the issue. Do you think it bothers the Swedes when their IKEA home furnishing products say, "Made in China/Russia/Romania/Portugal/any-where-like-but-Sweden"??

I think they got over this a long time ago, because the products also say: Design and Quality IKEA of Sweden.

 

[Prospector]

I was at Uni 30 years ago and the lecture theatres were still packed! So cant blame those pesky FULL FEE paying overseas students for that.

If our Unis are in trouble it is because they offer too many specialist courses at under-grad level; and each one of these courses requires the obligatory professor, associate professor, their staff, their honours students etc etc. And this costs way too much money to fund their infrastructure.

We need to go back to the basic undergrad degrees of Science, Arts/Humanities; Medical and Dental, Engineering, Law, Economics, Architecture, and probably a couple of others; then, at Post Grad level specialising can kick in.

Too many snouts in the trough at the moment.

Overseas students DO NOT get Austudy. They pay full fees, as well as their own living expenses, none of which are assisted by the Government. To get AUSTUDY you need to provide evidence of citizenship. Hardly any Australian students can qualify for AUSTUDY. I suspect our Unis could not run without OS. They need their fees. HECS fees dont come anywhere near the cost of a Uni degree.

So, lets ban overseas students and immediately the cost to Australian students getting a degree will double, overnight!

What a stupid, xenophobic rant this started with.

 

[doctorj]

Too many snouts in the trough at the moment.

I really can't see the problem. Large class sizes aren't themselves the problem, but rather the reduced quantity/quality of interaction that implies. I don't know if undergrads have changed since I was there, but most undergrads didn't participate unless they absolutely had to. There was more than enough interaction for those that wanted it.

 

[zzaaxxss3401]

Do you think it bothers the Swedes when their IKEA home furnishing products say, "Made in China/Russia/Romania/Portugal/any-where-like-but-Sweden"??

No - As long as the quality is up to the Swedes' standard.

 

[Aussiest]

full of 30 students, she is one of only 2 local students in a class of 30

I guess my only issue (if you could call it that) with that is the quality of the interaction you get with your classmates. Eg, it can work for you in the sense that you are exposed to different cultures, which can educating, or it can work against you if there is a language barrier.