What is God?

[treefrog]

Ok I have no problem with calling them religious, if you like. But using this definition everyone becomes religious, including the hedonist. Tell me your beliefs and I will tell you your religion.

Hence to use this definition and and then say 90% of all wars are started by religions is firstly meaningless, as under this definition everyone is religious, and secondly it is purposely misleading, as most people reading the statement, associate religion with the major organised religions, usually to do with God (hence your "imaginary friend" comment). So, read in context, you take a swipe at religion and "imaginary friends" which to all readers the meaning is plain, and then you claim a different definition of religion, which is not what most reasonable people would use on reading your comments.

silv

can honestly say being born without a "god spot" must be hereditary as dad was not into it either whereas mum was (but hated church based religions with a passion) - one brother turned catholic the other no god spot nor altruistic tendencies like me - but into Ayn Rand philosophy like I was for awhile

I did not mean to change tack as you infer - I attempted to refocus on my comment (that most wars are caused by religion) because I saw this as being misunderstood: but you took issue with this so I referred to the McQ dictionary definition which you appeared either unwilling or unable to accept

I don't claim to be into any sort of religion; god based or not hence my earlier comment that I can get by without an imaginary friend

I do agree that this implies congruence with the 'includes god' in religion but I was happy with that as that has been the general thrust of thread

have a look at the "god spot" research, its quite fascinating and explains a lot. In fact I would go so far as to say if the many different religions understood that info, there would be little to argue about knowing that it is impossible for any two people to envisage an identical god

cheerz

 

[chops_a_must]

Thanks Julia,

This pretty much shows I was using the term correctly. Secular humanists follow a worldview of Naturalism and refer to themselves as non-religious or non-theist.

Yes, but that doesn't mean it encompasses anything else you have assigned to them. Especially when you want to say Hitler was a secular humanist, when in actual fact, the nazis did not believe in any form of morality or ethical conduct ala Nietzsche, where morality and ethics is a key component of humanism, even stated above. There is no way the Nazis or Communists were secular humanists. You can't tell me that these movements were accepted on anything other than faith.

But... this thread is just proving you can't have a rational argument based on reason when faith is involved. Back to Kant you go I say!

And God speaking to Voltaire. Who does god speak to exactly? And in which mental hospital are they located in?

 

[explod]

Read a book years ago called "The golden bough" The life's work of an Oxford scholar (cant think of his name any more). But he researched all of the religions and other spiritual customs that he could track down.

One great point comes through, and that is that its success lies in teaching it to the children. I call it brainwashing, Jung would say, 'sub-conscious imprinting.

I was raised a Catholic (I do not believe now) As youngsters our parents would have us kneel together and recite the Rosary, this consisted of one prayer 50 times over and after every ten the Our Farther (at the end of each one of those we prayed for the conversion of Russia). Of course this was reinforced at school and at Church each Sunday. And the whole deal 365 days a year is very powerful imprinting.

I have witnessed within my own family huge damage done by this type of coercive brain washing. I respect the beliefs and ways of others but believe there will be no proper solution till everyone has the opportunity to have a well ballanced and complete university education.

My immortality is in the good I can do to others. So to me God is in all of us but can only come out if we are given the opportunity to know ourselves as the creative individuals that we are. The icon of a God is created because some people are unable to conceptualise in a philosophical way. It takes the correct education to get to that point. I think it is why the church cling to thier own education systems. Keep them away from the heathens = the truth.

Religions do not like the individual thinker, I did not do well at school and my youngest Son ran into similar problems at 4th year so got him straight out into a State run school where he did well . They do not like the deep questions.

They burned individuals at the stake even.

 

[chops_a_must]

Yes, well said...

I think one would do well to seperate wars based on reason, and those fought on faith, rather than religion. How many wars can you say in history were fought in the name of rational thought? The allied part of WW2 is really the only one I could possibly think of.

 

[refined silver]

silv

so I referred to the McQ dictionary definition which you appeared either unwilling or unable to accept

I have no problem with the definition as I've stated a few times. My problem is that it renders the comment about wars being started by religions as meaningless as everyone has this "religion", and since it was used in the same sentence as imaginary friends, it is seems obvious from the context to be talking about God/god religions. Surely you can concede this?

 

[refined silver]

in actual fact, the nazis did not believe in any form of morality or ethical conduct ala Nietzsche, where morality and ethics is a key component of humanism, even stated above. There is no way the Nazis or Communists were secular humanists. You can't tell me that these movements were accepted on anything other than faith.

The Nazis and communists were absolutely consistent in their ethics and morality based on their worldview.

Communists are secular humanists, they totally subscribe to the Naturalistic worldview.

True, there is faith involved, but this is true in every philosophy. Humans, being finite, starting with only themselves have no absolute or point of reference, hence nothing can ever be known absolutely and hence is held by faith. Your beliefs are just as much (I would argue far more) a position of faith, than say the Christian worldview.

 

[refined silver]

Religions do not like the individual thinker. hey do not like the deep questions.

They burned individuals at the stake even.

If a religion/church/faith can't accept or answer deep questions, it doesn't deserve to be followed.

Forced religion is totalitarian and is horrid.

The Bible calls us to search for, and to love truth. Not a system of beliefs, but truth. The real problem is that many violate their own values and do not live up to the truth they alreayd understand.

 

[chops_a_must]

The Nazis and communists were absolutely consistent in their ethics and morality based on their worldview.

Communists are secular humanists, they totally subscribe to the Naturalistic worldview.

True, there is faith involved, but this is true in every philosophy. Humans, being finite, starting with only themselves have no absolute or point of reference, hence nothing can ever be known absolutely and hence is held by faith. Your beliefs are just as much (I would argue far more) a position of faith, than say the Christian worldview.

I'll just leave it at bahahahahahahaha.

Because there is no point in arguing with religious types when it gets to this point. I can sit here and say you are blatantly incorrect, but you know, religion creates delusion, and that's where this argument is currently.

 

[treefrog]

I have no problem with the definition as I've stated a few times. My problem is that it renders the comment about wars being started by religions as meaningless as everyone has this "religion", and since it was used in the same sentence as imaginary friends, it is seems obvious from the context to be talking about God/god religions. Surely you can concede this?

I thought I did but will repost:
"I don't claim to be into any sort of religion; god based or not hence my earlier comment that I can get by without an imaginary friend

I do agree that this implies congruence with the 'includes god' in religion but I was happy with that as that has been the general thrust of this thread"

and that concludes frog's input to this thread - he will not revisit until he is reincarnated as a righteous god fearing christian, jew or muslim with much narrower views

 

[refined silver]

I'll just leave it at bahahahahahahaha.

Because there is no point in arguing with religious types when it gets to this point. I can sit here and say you are blatantly incorrect, but you know, religion creates delusion, and that's where this argument is currently.

Fair enough, I'll leave it too, but with one last comment.

The Bible says, "The fool says in his HEART, there is no God" (Ps 14:1). The root of your beliefs are in your heart, not your head.

You may construct a mental refuge hut out of justifications, excuses, lies, and other philosophical driftwood, but underneath it all is a heart problem not a head problem. It could be:

1. Hurt or Bitterness - life threw you a curve ball and you got angry and blamed God. You or somebody close was hurt by the church or someone claiming to represent or be a follower of God.

2. Immorality - you do not live according to Bible standards of morality, eg dishonesty, adultery, sex outside or marriage, or whatever, and so to accept belief in God while living like this is to condemn yourself.

3. Pride - You believe you are the fount of all truth and refuse to bow or submit to any God.

You can prove if its really a head problem by asking what is the biggest intellectual objection you have to Christianity, if that was answered would you become a believer? You may answer yes, but if deep down you know the answer is no, and that you would not accept any answer to your objection, then you know its a heart issue not a head issue.

Regards,

 

[dalek]

[QUOTE=refined silver;239689
The Bible calls us to search for, and to love truth. Not a system of beliefs, but truth.

You are correct, but surely you would also have to agree that to find truth we must accept that what we currently believe could just be wrong.

I should be astonished at the intractability and dogmatism in some of the posts, but sadly I'm not.

Personally I do not feel a need to follow formal religion, but it has given comfort to people I care about and that can't be a bad thing.
Again, personally, prefer chocolate for comfort ...or vodka when I need to be really comfy.

 

[moneymajix]

Re: Why do we believe in God?

From The Times

February 19, 2008

Why do we believe in God? £2m study prays for answer

Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

Researchers at the University of Oxford will spend £1.9 million investigating why people believe in God. Academics have been given a grant to try to find out whether belief in a deity is a matter of nature or nurture.

They will not attempt to solve the question of whether God exists but they will examine evidence to try to prove whether belief in God conferred an evolutionary advantage to mankind. They will also consider the possibility that faith developed as a byproduct of other human characteristics, such as sociability.

Researchers at the Ian Ramsey Centre for Science and Religion and the Centre for Anthropology and Mind in Oxford will use the cognitive science disciplines to develop “a scientific approach to why we believe in God and other issues around the nature and origin of religious belief”.

The cognitive sciences, or the science of mind and intelligence, combine disciplines such as evolutionary biology, neuroscience, linguistics and computer sciences to examine human behaviour.

Justin Barrett, a psychologist who has been quoted in support of arguments by both the atheist Richard Dawkins and his critic, Alister Mc-Grath, a Christian theologian, said: “We are interested in exploring exactly in what sense belief in God is natural. We think there is more on the nature side than a lot of people suppose.”

He compared believers to three-year-olds who “assume that other people know almost everything there is to be known”. Dr Barrett, who is a Christian, is the editor of the Journal of Cognition and Cultureand author of the book Why Would Anyone Believe in God? He said that the childish tendency to believe in the omniscience of others was pared down by experience as people grew up. But this tendency, necessary to allow human beings to socialise and cooperate with each other in a productive way, continued when it came to belief in God.

“It usually does continue into adult life,” he said. “It is easy, it is intuitive, it is natural. It fits our default assumptions about things.”

The research will feed into other areas, such as whether the conflicts associated with religion are a product of human nature. The project will also examine whether belief in the afterlife is something that needs to be taught or is a product of natural selection.

Dr Barrett said: “The next step therefore is to look at some of the detailed questions � which religious beliefs are most common and most natural for the human mind to grasp?” The most exciting questions were in areas such as the different responses to polytheism and monotheism, for example, and relationships between religion and evolutionary biology.

He and his colleague Roger Trigg will be investigating whether religion is a part of the selection process that has helped humans survive or merely a byproduct of evolution.

The three-year study is being funded by a £1.9 million grant to the Ian Ramsey Centre from the John Templeton Foundation, which supports research into religion, science and spirituality. There will be seminars and workshops, while £800,000 will go towards a small grant competition, with 41 grants for different projects.

Professor Trigg, a senior research Fellow at Oxford and author of Religion in Public Life: Must Faith be Privatised?, said: “Religion has played an important role in public life over the past few years and the debate about the origin of religion, and how it fits into the human mind, has intensified. This study will not prove or disprove any aspectof religion.”

 

[breakeven]

I think George Lucas got it right in Starwars! God is the force ... God is everywhere and in everything. It is that which binds us. By Gods presence and absence there is a good side and a bad side to God. As Karen Armstrong points out in 'History of God' man has reinvented God according to man's needs at the time. God is so pervasive and all encompassing as to be incomprehensible by man other than for each man to define God according to man's cultural needs and personal needs at the time.

 

[metric]

the jewish kabbalah is a good spiritual/supernatural guide to 'what is god'.

here is a quote i found on a kabbalistic web site..

God is the indescribable, uncreated, self existent, eternal all knowing source of all reality and being.

i also believe the relationship between man and god, does not need a middleman... $

 

[Wysiwyg]

In this excerpt it is showing the strength of belief in something.In this case, and on thread, an example of belief in a god.

The deeper the hellish love that comes out in the temptation experience, the more we are shocked and challenged to approve or disapprove, and to go along or to fight like hell to resist it. This is a subjective experience. In fact, as revealed in the Writings, we have zero power to oppose the furious hells attacking us, grabbing hold of us, wanting desperately to make us part of them.

They succeed if we give in, stop resisting, and let ourselves enjoy the evil, and finally loving it so that we look for it again, anticipate it, and are willing to abuse self and others in order to keep getting it. But when we resist in the Name of God, we are given as-if our own power to resist, and desist, and finally to hold the experience in aversion and disgust.

 

[Wysiwyg]

One more and you don`t have to read it if you choose so.I will give some thoughts on a few of the statements.

The Writings confirm the fact that mental traits are inherited as well as learned. All inherited mental traits can be changed by self-modification. The earliest generations on this earth inherited heavenly or altruistic traits until aberrant individuals introduced negative loves by inverting their inherited positive traits.

When they passed into the world of spirits they were segregated from the others in their heavenly mental states. The hells were thus created. After many generations and succeeding civilizations the negative traits became so predominant that a life of hell on earth was established--crimes, wars, sicknesses, famines, abuse of women and children, deception, discrimination, injustice, and so on, all of which are familiar to us today

.

The Writings confirm the fact that mental traits are inherited as well as learned.

This is true by observation and experience and most definately a fact.Very good.

All inherited mental traits can be changed by self-modification.

The key word here being can.Once again by observation and experience it is known that mental traits are not changed and many of us are habitual and repetitive with a deep seated personality that wants to change but can`t.The tracks to the source are cut deep.

The earliest generations on this earth inherited heavenly or altruistic traits until aberrant individuals introduced negative loves by inverting their inherited positive traits.

Now to the bit that leaps ahead of itself in one unfounded sentence.At some point in history man started thinking differently according to these words above.Where did these negative loves come from and more to the point how were the positive ones inverted.Man is as animal in survival traits (indeed all life) so i can say that these "earliest generations" also were aberrant and thus there was no change.

When they passed into the world of spirits they were segregated from the others in their heavenly mental states. The hells were thus created.

Again here this is imagining.A thought that evokes fear and can be used for control and powerand effectively perpetuating the negative aberrations.

After many generations and succeeding civilizations the negative traits became so predominant that a life of hell on earth was established--crimes, wars, sicknesses, famines, abuse of women and children, deception, discrimination, injustice, and so on, all of which are familiar to us today.

And here we have the present situation.Not unlike the past situation except there are more people on the Earth now.There were no aberrant individuals as the cause.It has always been.Good day.

 

[moneymajix]

Re: Mother and Father God

In my reading today came across some Gnostic ideas.

God is knowledge and love.

That there has always been a Mother and Father God.

Father God is about intellect and Mother God about emotion.

 

[moneymajix]

Re: The Abbey

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/theabbey/

Yesterday I watched The Abbey, a three episode program from ABC TV,
on DVD.

Five women who go an live in an monastic community which is largely closed off from the rest of the world.

No TV, mobiles, chocolate, alcohol for 33 days.

The women get up at 4am each day and pray seven times a day.

Worth a watch to find out what these different women find in the silence when they listened.

You must come away to some lonely place all by yourselves and rest awhile.’ Mark 6.31

The Abbey, a Compass special presentation, puts monastic life to the test in this extraordinary three-part series to air on ABC TV from Sunday, October 14 at 9.30pm.

The Abbey follows five ordinary Australian women as they spend 33 days and nights living the life of an enclosed Benedictine nun. Never before has the outside world entered the cloisters of the Abbey, until they allowed the ABC unprecedented access within their monastery walls.

From very different backgrounds, with very different views about spirituality, these women will leave behind the hurly-burly of modern day life to embark upon a search for meaning, God and the self behind the walls of the enclosed order.

Will our five women cope with the 4am wake-up calls, the seven daily visits to the Abbey church, and the 1500-year-old Benedictine Rule of Silence, Obedience and Renunciation?

Running the Abbey is the Mother Abbess, however it’s the lovable and always effervescent Sister Hilda who facilitates the experiment, ensuring each of the women lives by the set day-to-day schedule, follows the Rule and fulfils her chores such as cooking, cleaning, farm work and craft-making. Sister Hilda, along with the other Sister mentors, also offers encouragement, wisdom, support and guidance in order to assist the women’s journey of self-discovery.

As the five women enter the Abbey, it’s 57-year-old Robyn from Queensland’s Gold Coast who almost immediately struggles with the rule of Renunciation. She’s not sure how she’ll cope without her hair dryer. Tassie-born Lyn, who is just about to turn 50, isn’t used to confronting her emotions. Will Hilda, her Sister-mentor, successfully guide her feelings out of their dark hiding place and bring her true self to the fore?

Budding musician Tusa is chatty and full of energy. At only 23 years of age, this Brisbane gal has no place for God in her life, but she has entered the Abbey not knowing which way her life is headed, and is searching for some much-needed direction. 30-year-old Tammy, all the way from Perth, is influenced by everything. Will she be able to give up her guidance cards, healing crystals and incense burning for God? Tammy has a few secrets that she will reveal during the 33 days, opening up the flood-gates of emotion.

40-year-old Meg is leaving country Victoria for a much-needed sojourn at the Abbey. As a busy mum with little spare time on her hands, Meg feels life has dealt her a challenging hand giving birth to a daughter with a severe genetic disorder. She has some big questions for God. Will the Abbey experience put Meg at peace with what she wonders is her life purpose?

With five Australian women all looking for a life-changing experience, what can happen at the Abbey is a chance to explore life’s biggest questions, but what actually does happen will intrigue you.

Reminded me a bit of silent Buddhist meditation retreats.

Silence and reducing distraction being the key.


.

 

[Sir Osisofliver]

*sigh*

Just once I'd like to visit a web forum and NOT see pages of drivel devoted to this topic.

Can't you people ever grow out of having an invisible friend?

@ Admin - is there an ignore function on threads?

 

[Sean K]

*sigh*

Just once I'd like to visit a web forum and NOT see pages of drivel devoted to this topic.

Can't you people ever grow out of having an invisible friend?

@ Admin - is there an ignore function on threads?

The last post was in April.

You must have searched for it.