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The future of energy generation and storage

A good article on the state of play in the W.A grid and also discusses and confirms what we have talked about in this thread, worth a read for those interested in an overview of the W.A system.
I worked alongside Andy Wearmouth for a lot of my career, he is a honest straight shooter and has worked as a senior electrical engineer in power production all of his career. So he does know what he is talking about and his assessment will be pretty well on the money. ;)
As are Mr Fyfe's comments, a very open and frank article.


A monument to storage​

Indeed, WA is placing big bets on big batteries on a monumental scale.

In Kwinana, two sit side by side.

The first was built during the depths of COVID.

With a size of 100 megawatts and a capacity to run for two hours, the battery was for a time one of the biggest in Australia.

But last month it was eclipsed by the commissioning of a second, sister battery, which can run at 200MW for four hours.

Further down the road near Collie — the traditional home of coal mining and coal-fired power production in WA — there are batteries that are vastly bigger still.

Late last year, French renewable energy player Neoen cut the ribbon at a gargantuan 560MW/2240MWh installation just outside the town.

By this October, Synergy is scheduled to bring online a similarly massive facility just around the corner.

And there's more to come.

Gavin Mooney, the Australian general manager of smart energy platform Kaluza, says what's happening in WA is remarkable.

"The average demand on that grid in WA is about 2800MW," Mr Mooney explains.


"By the end of this year, the state's going to have more than 1,500 megawatts of batteries installed.

"And by the end of next year, it's going to be over 2,000.

"So relative to the average demand of 2,800, this is a really big chunk."

WA's gambit on big batteries is aimed at solving a raft of the problems posed by the shift towards renewable energy — and away from fossil fuels.

Shifting the load​

Arguably, however, it's centred on something little-known outside of the energy industry — a phenomenon called load shifting.

The term refers to shifting demand for electricity — load — to those times of the day when supply might be more abundant.

In an Australian context, Mr Fyfe says, it means shifting demand to when solar output is greatest.

"Western Australia now has over 40 per cent of households with solar panels on the roof," Mr Fyfe notes.

"In the middle of the day, a 23-degree day, maybe on a Sunday, for example, we end up in a situation where there's more energy coming into the system than there are people to use it."

Mr Mooney echoed the comments.

He says rooftop solar is increasingly defining Australia's electricity supply and the design of the system needs to reflect this.

"It all comes back to rooftop solar," Mr Mooney argues.


"That is where batteries come in.

"By charging up in the middle of the day, the batteries can start to soak up some of that rooftop solar and actually increase demand in the middle of the day.

"They can then start discharging in the evening when we have a peak in demand, people get home from work, they turn on the air conditioning, they turn on the oven, and so on."


Mr Fyfe says using batteries in this way avoids placing the burden on households to shift their own demand to the middle of the day.

He notes many consumers can — and do — change their behaviour to capitalise on cheap solar power when it's available.

But he argues many others can't.

"There's two ways to fix the issue," he says.

"You build more generation or you change behaviour.

"Sometimes building more generation … is a more efficient way of doing it.


'Sun still has to shine'​

For all the optimism about batteries and their benefits to the system, others aren't so sure.

Andy Wearmouth is the former chief engineer at Synergy.

He says batteries are "very useful", particularly in shifting energy around on a day-to-day basis, but they are not a panacea because they don't generate electricity themselves.


"The difference is batteries don't make the stuff," Mr Wearmouth says.

"All they can do is store energy that they've taken from somewhere. The vision is that that will be taken from rooftop solar or wind and stored.

"But the problem is the coal-fired power station can bang away for days and weeks on end producing its energy at its name-plate rating.

"A battery can't do that. The premise is that the Sun must have shone or the wind must have blown the previous day so you can recharge the things."

Batteries 'no silver bullet'​

Mr Wearmouth says there will always be instances where the wind does not blow for days on end and solar output is much-diminished.

"I think they're being seen as a bit of a silver bullet," he says.

"And that is not my experience and judgement on what they actually are.


"Unless you can guarantee you've something to recharge it with, you've got a problem because the sugar hit isn't there tomorrow.

Mr Wearmouth says while renewable energy coupled with batteries will be able to meet some, or even much of the state's conventional generation, it needs an "insurance".


And that insurance, he stresses, is most probably going to be gas-fired power.

With it would come logistical challenges, he says, such as ensuring there is sufficient pipeline and storage capacity to meet occasional intense demand.

Then there is the economic challenge posed by it all — namely how to pay for all that gas capacity while using lower volumes of the stuff across a typical year.

Regardless of how it plays out, Mr Wearmouth is sure of one thing — the rest of the energy world will be keeping one eye on WA.

"If we take seriously the requirement to decarbonise, which we should, then getting it wrong sets back the cause an awfully long way," he says.

"People are very intolerant of sitting in the dark, particularly on hot days.

"So getting it wrong really challenges your ability to move forward in any direction.

"You've got to get it right."


World's eyes watching​

On that point, Mr Fyfe from Synergy agrees.

He says WA is blazing a trail that others may well follow.

"Battery storage, you'll find, will be an essential cog in the energy system and it will play an incredible role allowing additional renewable energy to come on in the system," Mr Fyfe says.

"And as we transition away from coal, that's really important."

Mr Mooney acknowledges that batteries are not — and cannot be — the solution to all of the problems that are facing the energy transition.

He concedes the question of "deep storage" — or energy capacity that can last for days or weeks at a time — is vexing and, as yet, without answer.

But he says it would be a mistake to underestimate the importance of batteries — to overlook what they will do and they are, in fact, already doing.

[Battery revolution — California graph]
For example, he says that while rooftop solar is squeezing out coal power in the middle of the day, batteries would allow it to increasingly displace gas generation in the peak.


In any case, he says the size of WA's bet on batteries would have profound effects.

"There are other regions of the world where we have significant numbers of batteries being installed, such as California, Texas, you know, sunny places with lots of rooftop solar.

"Also, places where there's just a lot of variable renewables, wind and solar.

"In the United Kingdom, for example, it was announced … two of the biggest batteries in Europe are going to be built in Scotland.
Scotland for sun?
Just kidding plenty of wind there
 
Also thermal runaway shouldn't be an issue. ⛄
But one issue is the windier, the colder so wind increases, windfarm output jumps but demand jumps with heating..unless you use gas heaters...
So great actually in principle but not that great for batteries
 
But one issue is the windier, the colder so wind increases, windfarm output jumps but demand jumps with heating..unless you use gas heaters...
So great actually in principle but not that great for batteries

Mr Maizie said rechargeable batteries that were hot or smoking were in a dangerous state known as thermal runaway, and should never be put in a fridge or freezer.

"We're very fortunate that the people were awake this morning, they saw it happening, it was getting hot, he put it in a freezer, but that doesn't actually cool it down," Mr Maizie said.

"Once it starts it's called thermal runaway and it will continue then explode and catch fire. It's a very powerful battery and causes a really big fire."
 
But one issue is the windier, the colder so wind increases, windfarm output jumps but demand jumps with heating..unless you use gas heaters...
I did see at a petrol station in Scotland a pump dispensing heating oil.

It was a lot cheaper than diesel or petrol, a third or so of the price from memory, and there was a large warning sign about going to prison if you put heating oil into a vehicle due to tax evasion.

I thus paid a comparative fortune and filled the car's tank with diesel.

Also in Scotland I recall seeing bags of coal being sold at petrol stations. Just the thing you'll need if you're driving one of these:

 
It is a similar layout to the $3.5 billion U.S. National Ignition Facility (NIF) in Northern California, which in 2022 generated more energy from a fusion reaction than the lasers pumped into the target - "scientific breakeven".
Eveleth, who is working with analysts at the James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS), estimates the experiment bay at the Chinese facility is about 50% bigger than the one at NIF, currently the world's largest.

From reuters
 
It is a similar layout to the $3.5 billion U.S. National Ignition Facility (NIF) in Northern California, which in 2022 generated more energy from a fusion reaction than the lasers pumped into the target - "scientific breakeven".
Eveleth, who is working with analysts at the James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS), estimates the experiment bay at the Chinese facility is about 50% bigger than the one at NIF, currently the world's largest.

From reuters
Probably the 17min mention in #9315
I know we have been ramping fusion for a lifetime but it is coming and i genuinely believe i will see it commercially running in my lifetime
 
Probably the 17min mention in #9315
I know we have been ramping fusion for a lifetime but it is coming and i genuinely believe i will see it commercially running in my lifetime
I agree with you and as with most things, it is only a matter of time.

Eventually the world will be able to be powered by renewables, it is just a matter of time IMO. :xyxthumbs
 
I agree with you and as with most things, it is only a matter of time.

Eventually the world will be able to be powered by renewables, it is just a matter of time IMO. :xyxthumbs
RE and fusion, the economics will never match imho focusing on pure RE, especially in countries like Australia and EU turning into economic laggards.
 
Eventually the world will be able to be powered by renewables, it is just a matter of time IMO.
Ultimately there is no choice since non-renewables are just that, they're finite resources.

A point lost among the politics is that energy was widely seen as a problem for well over a decade before anyone said anything at all about climate. Indeed coal was seen as the stopgap means of addressing the more pressing problems presented by oil and gas.

Fossil fuels are a problem with or without CO2 being a problem. Not because we're about to run out of them as such, but because high quality cheaply accessible reserves are indeed limited - society's in for a rough ride economically if we're forced to accept declining grades of fuel recovered at increasing cost, that's as inflationary as it gets.

Alternatives have to be made to work, the question's about how best to do it. :2twocents
 
Ultimately there is no choice since non-renewables are just that, they're finite resources.

A point lost among the politics is that energy was widely seen as a problem for well over a decade before anyone said anything at all about climate. Indeed coal was seen as the stopgap means of addressing the more pressing problems presented by oil and gas.

Fossil fuels are a problem with or without CO2 being a problem. Not because we're about to run out of them as such, but because high quality cheaply accessible reserves are indeed limited - society's in for a rough ride economically if we're forced to accept declining grades of fuel recovered at increasing cost, that's as inflationary as it gets.

Alternatives have to be made to work, the question's about how best to do it. :2twocents
The future of the airline industry is the most problematic as there is little alternative to fossil fuels for their operations.

I can't see batteries powering A380's from London to Sydney any time soon.
 
The future of the airline industry is the most problematic as there is little alternative to fossil fuels for their operations.

I can't see batteries powering A380's from London to Sydney any time soon.
Syngas is a reality: electricity plus air/co2 and you can get petrol like compounds and aviation fuel
Porsche is building a plant purely to ensure green stamped supplies for its collectors items f.e.
In the new reset world of WEF, only the richest and their government servitors will fly so cost is no issue..
 
The future of the airline industry is the most problematic as there is little alternative to fossil fuels for their operations.

I can't see batteries powering A380's from London to Sydney any time soon.
I doubt batteries could actually get an A380 up to take off speed, let alone get it off the ground. The batteries to do that would probably weigh more than the plane and imagine the size of the propellers . 😂
 
I doubt batteries could actually get an A380 up to take off speed, let alone get it off the ground. The batteries to do that would probably weigh more than the plane and imagine the size of the propellers . 😂
The Yamks did experiment with nuclear powered aircraft but they never took off. Yuk yuk.
 
The future of the airline industry is the most problematic as there is little alternative to fossil fuels for their operations.

I can't see batteries powering A380's from London to Sydney any time soon.
There are already alternatives to AVTUR and AVGAS.

SAFInvestor highlights three biofuel refineries to be built in Australia.
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Worldwide, there are some 190 companies getting involved in SAF according to SAF fuels
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The FAA have already mandated the phasing out of fossil fuels, and plan to be net zero in carbon by 2050.
Mick
 
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