The ScoMo Government

[sptrawler]

Let's hope all sides can lay down their arms and come to consensus, for an Australia that continues to grow a Country where anyone who tries can succeed, or the continual slide to third world outcomes will continue IMO.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05...elations-business-unions-coronavirus/12287072

 

[moXJO]

As much as I dislike a lot of the libs stances, Scomo has been getting bang on during covid. One of his pleb advisers must read asf.

 

[PZ99]

They say the current industrial relations system is not fit for purpose. This is despite it holding unemployment low during the GFC where other nations fell into mass unemployment.

They need to clearly define just what that "purpose" is otherwise there will be no consensus.

If the sole purpose is low unemployment and nothing else the slide to third world will accelerate quicker than you can say "Workchoices 2.0".

Consensus can only be achieved if it involves taxation reform like it did last time in the 80's

 

[macca]

They say the current industrial relations system is not fit for purpose. This is despite it holding unemployment low during the GFC where other nations fell into mass unemployment.

They need to clearly define just what that "purpose" is otherwise there will be no consensus.

If the sole purpose is low unemployment and nothing else the slide to third world will accelerate quicker than you can say "Workchoices 2.0".

Consensus can only be achieved if it involves taxation reform like it did last time in the 80's

Not only tax reform but many others areas of red tape as well, our SMEs are drowning in PC forms and surveys.

If they actually were taken notice of fair enough but so many forms are filed and forgotten, time wasted by people who have very little spare time.

 

[Dona Ferentes]

They say the current industrial relations system is not fit for purpose. This is despite it holding unemployment low during the GFC where other nations fell into mass unemployment.

They need to clearly define just what that "purpose" is otherwise there will be no consensus.

If the sole purpose is low unemployment and nothing else the slide to third world will accelerate quicker than you can say "Workchoices 2.0".

Consensus can only be achieved if it involves taxation reform like it did last time in the 80's

lucky country, mate.

 

[sptrawler]

Consensus can only be achieved if it involves taxation reform like it did last time in the 80's

What would that be? wage rises limited to below cpi rises and a 16% cut to the company tax rate? That would get things moving.

 

[PZ99]

What would that be? wage rises limited to below cpi rises and a 16% cut to the company tax rate? That would get things moving.

Wage rises have been close to CPI anyway so can't give much more ground there.

Get rid of payroll tax for starters. On the employee side the current taxation system discourages productivity growth. I'm always seeing people refuse overtime because they say it's not worth it due to the extra tax for the week. Or because they get slugged with the medicare surcharge for not being in a health fund.

Other disadvantages are sick leave. People take it even when they're not sick simply because if they don't, it's forfeited when they leave the job. It therefore creates too much absenteeism so it's bad for both the employer and employee. It should be cashable beyond a certain number of accumulated hours.

People being stood down from work during COVID highlighted a flaw in the current system. qantas stopped paying sick leave to an employee who was on leave with a heart attack because they declared there was no work to be sick from so they terminated his sick pay even though he still had plenty of leave accumulated. I think that's BS. qantas is a shit company when it comes to treatment of employees and a classic case of how they would take this country to the dogs with IR laws.

ScoMo is right in one sense. The IR debate has been an unworkable "us and them" warfare.
But that's because employers always want to kill off the Better Off Overall Test, attack annual leave, sickies, redundancy pay, holiday pay, penalty rates.... in other words they won't be happy unless Workchoices is back and that's just not going to work. You only have to look at the rampant wage theft to get an idea what employers want. It's all one way.

Anyone who thinks this is going to be without prejudice should buy a lotto ticket.

 

[SirRumpole]

Wage rises have been close to CPI anyway so can't give much more ground there.

Get rid of payroll tax for starters. On the employee side the current taxation system discourages productivity growth. I'm always seeing people refuse overtime because they say it's not worth it due to the extra tax for the week. Or because they get slugged with the medicare surcharge for not being in a health fund.

Other disadvantages are sick leave. People take it even when they're not sick simply because if they don't, it's forfeited when they leave the job. It therefore creates too much absenteeism so it's bad for both the employer and employee. It should be cashable beyond a certain number of accumulated hours.

People being stood down from work during COVID highlighted a flaw in the current system. qantas stopped paying sick leave to an employee who was on leave with a heart attack because they declared there was no work to be sick from so they terminated his sick pay even though he still had plenty of leave accumulated. I think that's BS. qantas is a shit company when it comes to treatment of employees and a classic case of how they would take this country to the dogs with IR laws.

ScoMo is right in one sense. The IR debate has been an unworkable "us and them" warfare.
But that's because employers always want to kill off the Better Off Overall Test, attack annual leave, sickies, redundancy pay, holiday pay, penalty rates.... in other words they won't be happy unless Workchoices is back and that's just not going to work. You only have to look at the rampant wage theft to get an idea what employers want. It's all one way.

Anyone who thinks this is going to be without prejudice should buy a lotto ticket.

The government obviously thinks that it's a good tactical time to have such a debate.

Employees are on their knees and they will be easier to beat over the head (with sympathy of course).

But at least there will be discussions, we'll have to see how they go. The economy pre covid was staggering along and the fundamentals weren't good, with stagnant wages and higher living costs.

If ScoMo has been channelling FDR and wants to bring in his own "New Deal" , it's going to require widespread reform of taxation, immigration , IR, industry assistance , welfare , education and lots more.

I hope he's got the balls for it, but he's shown his political nature by sidelining the Labor Party from the discussions. No big deal, Hawke did the same to the Libs with his accord.

 

[qldfrog]

The government obviously thinks that it's a good tactical time to have such a debate.

Employees are on their knees and they will be easier to beat over the head (with sympathy of course).

But at least there will be discussions, we'll have to see how they go. The economy pre covid was staggering along and the fundamentals weren't good, with stagnant wages and higher living costs.

If ScoMo has been channelling FDR and wants to bring in his own "New Deal" , it's going to require widespread reform of taxation, immigration , IR, industry assistance , welfare , education and lots more.

I hope he's got the balls for it, but he's shown his political nature by sidelining the Labor Party from the discussions. No big deal, Hawke did the same to the Libs with his accord.

Has labour changed in the last 2 months, doubt it, they have been playing the systematic obstruction as well, and labour does not represent working class snymore anyway.
Thanks God they are not involved, the problem in Australia is the lack of representation.
Is there a union or similar with proper decent behaviour/represetativity to discuss with?

 

[PZ99]

The Coalition were kept out of the accord because they opposed it entirely.

By all means have the debate - but keep Labor AND Liberal out of it.

They are sponsored by identities with ulterior motives that will poison any debate.

FairWork was supposed to be the independent IR body with reps from all sides.. so why is the Government even involved at all ?

 

[sptrawler]

Wage rises have been close to CPI anyway so can't give much more ground there.

Get rid of payroll tax for starters. On the employee side the current taxation system discourages productivity growth. I'm always seeing people refuse overtime because they say it's not worth it due to the extra tax for the week. Or because they get slugged with the medicare surcharge for not being in a health fund.

Other disadvantages are sick leave. People take it even when they're not sick simply because if they don't, it's forfeited when they leave the job. It therefore creates too much absenteeism so it's bad for both the employer and employee. It should be cashable beyond a certain number of accumulated hours.

People being stood down from work during COVID highlighted a flaw in the current system. qantas stopped paying sick leave to an employee who was on leave with a heart attack because they declared there was no work to be sick from so they terminated his sick pay even though he still had plenty of leave accumulated. I think that's BS. qantas is a shit company when it comes to treatment of employees and a classic case of how they would take this country to the dogs with IR laws.

ScoMo is right in one sense. The IR debate has been an unworkable "us and them" warfare.
But that's because employers always want to kill off the Better Off Overall Test, attack annual leave, sickies, redundancy pay, holiday pay, penalty rates.... in other words they won't be happy unless Workchoices is back and that's just not going to work. You only have to look at the rampant wage theft to get an idea what employers want. It's all one way.

Anyone who thinks this is going to be without prejudice should buy a lotto ticket.

So what do the employers get out of it? Why not something like:
Sick leave in a lot of instances has to be covered by overtime, so it is a double whamy for the employer, the person who takes it gets paid and the person who covers them gets double time. So maybe any sickies that aren't taken get cashed out on termination, everyone gets a % pay rise and the workers cover the sickies themselves. That could be achieved at EBA level, without even changing the award.
I always worked for wages, so I do understand the system, as you guys are saying the companies always want more but so do the workers.
There is no comment above on what the worker can give.
Hawke got change by having the unions in his pocket, he and Kelty basically froze wages, that is a fact. Also company tax rates were dropped from 49% to 33% around the same time.
If ScoMo tried that there would be hell to pay, so in reality all you guys are saying is get the economy and business going by increasing costs, that is difficult. As Rumpy and everyone knows our industries have been struggling for years because of high costs.
Mining is the only industry booming, because labour is a low component of the overall cost of extraction, the real advantage is the raw material is near, or on the surface.
Without a two way compromise, manufacturing will always struggle, how many countries have 4 weeks paid holidays with loading, long service leave, 10 days sick leave a year etc.
I'm not saying it should be lost, as it is what makes Australia a great country to live and work in, but reality says it has to be kept with some compromise.
As above.
Just my opinion.

 

[Humid]

Has labour changed in the last 2 months, doubt it, they have been playing the systematic obstruction as well, and labour does not represent working class snymore anyway.
Thanks God they are not involved, the problem in Australia is the lack of representation.
Is there a union or similar with proper decent behaviour/represetativity to discuss with?

I think the working class have been conned into thinking their something their not.
A selfish dog eat dog workplace on a race to the bottom is what the Libs aimed for and got

 

[moXJO]

One thing I know that happened under COVID was all the DUD workers got the sack. I would think making it easier to fire employees would be on the list as most small companies won't excessively hire.

 

[PZ99]

So what do the employers get out of it? Why not something like:
Sick leave in a lot of instances has to be covered by overtime, so it is a double whamy for the employer, the person who takes it gets paid and the person who covers them gets double time. So maybe any sickies that aren't taken get cashed out on termination, everyone gets a % pay rise and the workers cover the sickies themselves.

You could do it that way or you could simply convert sick leave into normal holidays and add it to your annual leave. So an employee might think twice about taking a fake sickie because doing so is depleting their leave entitlements.

 

[qldfrog]

I agree the way the sick leaves are is a shame, you should be able to be cumulated for 2 years max..issue of pending liabilities on the accounts so must be limited,
And otherwise paid back yearly if unused.or converted to leaves
As is, currently a premium to the worst employees.

 

[sptrawler]

You could do it that way or you could simply convert sick leave into normal holidays and add it to your annual leave. So an employee might think twice about taking a fake sickie because doing so is depleting their leave entitlements.

Absolutely, but if it is converted to annual leave, it is another cost to the company, as they have to hold cash to cover that with sickies they don't.
Don't forget you are trying to increase productivity and competitiveness, that can't be done by just adding costs, once the costs make it uncompetitive the company shuts or relocates. As has happened.
We need to increase productivity, without reducing conditions and not overly inflating costs.
It can be done Europe does, the big advantage they have though, is a huge market place on their doorstep.

 

[PZ99]

Absolutely, but if it is converted to annual leave, it is another cost to the company, as they have to hold cash to cover that with sickies they don't.

That's news to me. Sick leave had to be covered the same way as any other entitlement.
That's how it was when I was an employer anyway.

The current system only rewards bad employees because they take too many fake sickies.

 

[sptrawler]

That's news to me. Sick leave had to be covered the same way as any other entitlement.
That's how it was when I was an employer anyway.

The current system only rewards bad employees because they take too many fake sickies.

Annual leave is a fixed cost and workers entitlement, sickies aren't.
Putting things another way and not having a go at anyone, workers always want more and companies always want more, even if workers are given huge pay rises and improved conditions, it isn't long before their life adjusts to the new norm and they want more.
It can be seen on here and it was where I worked, when I started in my last job in 1990 it was $50k p/a when I stopped in 2010 it was $200k and the conditions were heaps better, but the workers were still complaining.
You don't have to look further than this thread to see that money and conditions, doesn't make someone happy with their lot, even if they are on mega bucks.
It is a difficult situation to resolve, like I said Hawke achieved it because he had Kelty and the ACTU in his his pocket and they agreed to basically a wage freeze.
It did fix the unemployment and kick start the economy, but there was an actual loss of 18% in real wages, also tarrifs were dropped and the demise of our manufacturing started, the Button plan was the first nail in the car industries coffin.
https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/holdens-demise-started-with-the-hawke-government-20131212-2za8a.html

 

[Humid]

I can’t wait to retire so I can tell the workforce what their doing wrong as I sit with my slippers on trying not to nod off

 

[Humid]

One thing I know that happened under COVID was all the DUD workers got the sack. I would think making it easier to fire employees would be on the list as most small companies won't excessively hire.

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